wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing "forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless (just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools
and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

Microsoft point the general forums url at:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

The new Excel forums are at various addresses, for example the
worksheet.functions forum is now available at:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...&lang=en&cr=US

Which seem very different to the forums at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

So, confusion already then...


Neither are very nice in terms of keeping an eye on progressing threads,
filtering/sorting threads, etc., and if you want to store a message for
offline reading - well, good luck attempting that.

Personally, I think I'll stick to the newsgroup method until it's no longer
running.




"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in
the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers
and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and
off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

I'm with you, Steve. Newsgroups are so much easier than web-based forums.
I'll stick with them until forced to change. This may be a blessing in
disguise. I remember when Quicken switch to a web-based interface that was
at least as bad as Excel's. It became so frustrating I gave up, and put my
time to "better" use. Maybe the same thing will happen to Excel.

Regards,
Fred

"Steve Dunn" wrote in message
...
Microsoft point the general forums url at:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

The new Excel forums are at various addresses, for example the
worksheet.functions forum is now available at:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...&lang=en&cr=US

Which seem very different to the forums at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

So, confusion already then...


Neither are very nice in terms of keeping an eye on progressing threads,
filtering/sorting threads, etc., and if you want to store a message for
offline reading - well, good luck attempting that.

Personally, I think I'll stick to the newsgroup method until it's no
longer running.




"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx.
In the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in
the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers
and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and
off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction
by facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community
discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it is
better or worse. Just my 2 cents.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Joe User" wrote:

wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing "forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless (just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.


.

To expand on what I said...

I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only
issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that
exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I read
long ago. Secondly I am not sure that I like the new categories for XL.
Noteably the programming forum is gone. That being said the current
categories are not perfect either.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Jim Thomlinson" wrote:

I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it is
better or worse. Just my 2 cents.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Joe User" wrote:

wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing "forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless (just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.


.

"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in appearance.
I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways to go to the
same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways to
access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to access
(some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry was
using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list
of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is a
web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to
Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the obvious
"contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight. Apparently
he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely trying
to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in
the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers
and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and
off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

So will google groups still access this forum once it relocates??

"Jim Thomlinson" wrote:
I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it
is
better or worse.

You are right: I had not looked. Not that I have, I can offer the opinion
that I think the interface is even worse that the "Discussion Groups"
interface, if you can imagine that. (But of course, that is only one
opinion. To each his own.)

But I hasten to note that my previous comments were not intended to be about
the interface per se. I was not expressing any opinion then about whether
it is better or worse. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other.

I was expressing concern that Microsoft was limiting "forum" access to
Microsoft's method. My concern is based on Microsoft's historical failure
to maintain a reliable interface (web or otherwise, makes no difference to
me), and its historical failure to provide reason support of their
interface, e.g. a rudimentary "contact us" link to report problems. (No
matter: Microsoft does not address reported problems anyway. ;-)

I also expressed concern (along with compliments) about the moderator
process. That is based on two decades of experience with the NG moderator
process. The good: hopefully less spam, if not none at all. The bad:
potential delays, and possible censorship. MVP Ron Coderre can offer his
insight. Apparently he is (one of) the moderator for (some of) the new
Excel forums. (Note to Ron: I hope you have alternate moderators. That is
essential to process.)

Lastly, I was expressing concern about having only one method for posting
inquiries/responses -- a single point of failure. We have benefitted from
having multiple methods; when your favorite method encountered problems,
there was another method to post a "what's happening?" question, at the very
least.

Moreover, the openness of the NG server and the alternative archive sites
permitted me to troubleshoot and explain some posting problems. I have
dispelled some misunderstandings; and I have exposed some bad practices on
the MSnews server in particular. The opaqueness and uniqueness of the new
forum interface makes all that impossible. So we are entirely dependent on
Microsoft for support; and that comes full circle to my primary concern that
Microsoft has proven unable or incapable of supporting such forums.

Oh well, such as life....


----- original message -----

"Jim Thomlinson" wrote in message
...
I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it
is
better or worse. Just my 2 cents.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Joe User" wrote:

wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and
least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In
fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with
"forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools
and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.


.

"Jef Gorbach" wrote:
So will google groups still access this forum once
it relocates??

That is not really possible, well at least not without significant
investment by Google.

Google relies on a particular network protocol (NNTP) to access the
Microsoft forums archived on the MSnews server. Actually, Google relies on
Giganews, which in turn relies on the MSnews server.

Hypothetically, Microsoft might still mirror new forum activity on their
MSnews server. That is how the current "Discussion Groups" forum works.

But my understanding of their explanation is that they will not. They
write:

"Microsoft has a long history of establishing newsgroups that channel users
and issues into the newsgroup (NNTP) space where information is shared and
problems can be addressed by the community. [....] Using forums as the
online support strategy will reduce the number of redundant resources and
centralize content, making community contributions more broadly available
and impactful. Beginning in June 2010, Microsoft will begin closing
newsgroups and migrating users to Microsoft forums".

It seems clear that they are contrasting "newsgroup" access with "forum"
access, and they will be limiting access to the "forum" only through their
interface.

Theoretically, Google could design a program that "reads" the Microsoft web
interface, sorts things out, and archives inquires and responses in the form
that Google is accustomed to. After all, parsing HTML is Google's core
business.

However, I doubt that would happen. It would require that Google treat the
Microsoft "newsgroups" differently from the many thousands of other
newsgroups that Google archives.

Moreover, Google Groups is not the only other way to access Microsoft
newsgroups today. Even if GG implements a solution, users of the other
alternatives will be affected adversely.

To put all this in a positive light, I suspect that Microsoft's purpose is
to shield its forums from spam. That would be a good thing, if Microsoft
weren't so inept at supporting reliable forums.

Of course, maybe Microsoft will change. ;-)

I wrote:
"Jef Gorbach" wrote:
So will google groups still access this forum
once it relocates??

That is not really possible, well at least not
without significant investment by Google.

I should clarify that I interpreted Jef's question to be: will Google
Groups continue to track contributions made to the new forum?

Two related questions a (a) whether GG (or Giganews) will continue to
permit posting to its own set of microsoft.public newsgroups, creating an
independent forum in effect; and (b) even if not, whether GG will keep its
huge archive of old postings to microsoft.public newsgroups for searching
and reading, and for how long?

I suspect the answers are "no" and "probably not".

With respect to #a, the newsgroup system (Usenet) is composed of an
unstructured set of computers that lack any central administration or
authority. So theoretically, GG could continue to maintain an active set of
microsoft.public newsgroups, allowing users to access them exclusively
through the GG web interface. Giganews could do essentially the same thing,
and GG would never know the difference. (I don't know if Giganews has a
user interface of its own.)

However, note that Microsoft is a trademarked name; and the content of the
microsoft.public NGs originate on Microsoft servers. So I expect that
Microsoft will require that all well-known mirrors of the microsoft.public
NGs stop providing active acccess -- that is, accepting postings.

With respect to #b, the same legal issue applies to merely retaining an
archive of old microsoft.public NGs. Even though the archives themselves
are the property of their owners (e.g. GG), the NG names still contain a
trademarked name. Whether or not Microsoft will stand on that principle, or
GG renames those NGs in its archive, remains to be seen. But in any case, I
doubt that GG would permit read and search access on those NGs, but not
write access (posting).

Of course, I don't know. We might have to just wait and see.


----- original message -----

"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"Jef Gorbach" wrote:
So will google groups still access this forum once
it relocates??

That is not really possible, well at least not without significant
investment by Google.

Google relies on a particular network protocol (NNTP) to access the
Microsoft forums archived on the MSnews server. Actually, Google relies
on Giganews, which in turn relies on the MSnews server.

Hypothetically, Microsoft might still mirror new forum activity on their
MSnews server. That is how the current "Discussion Groups" forum works.

But my understanding of their explanation is that they will not. They
write:

"Microsoft has a long history of establishing newsgroups that channel
users and issues into the newsgroup (NNTP) space where information is
shared and problems can be addressed by the community. [....] Using
forums as the online support strategy will reduce the number of redundant
resources and centralize content, making community contributions more
broadly available and impactful. Beginning in June 2010, Microsoft will
begin closing newsgroups and migrating users to Microsoft forums".

It seems clear that they are contrasting "newsgroup" access with "forum"
access, and they will be limiting access to the "forum" only through their
interface.

Theoretically, Google could design a program that "reads" the Microsoft
web interface, sorts things out, and archives inquires and responses in
the form that Google is accustomed to. After all, parsing HTML is
Google's core business.

However, I doubt that would happen. It would require that Google treat
the Microsoft "newsgroups" differently from the many thousands of other
newsgroups that Google archives.

Moreover, Google Groups is not the only other way to access Microsoft
newsgroups today. Even if GG implements a solution, users of the other
alternatives will be affected adversely.

To put all this in a positive light, I suspect that Microsoft's purpose is
to shield its forums from spam. That would be a good thing, if Microsoft
weren't so inept at supporting reliable forums.

Of course, maybe Microsoft will change. ;-)

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link that
I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that I
don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may make I
will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not acknowledge any
of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in
appearance. I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways
to go to the same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways
to access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to
access (some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry was
using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list
of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is
a web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to
Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the
obvious "contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight.
Apparently he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel
forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely
trying to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx.
In the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in
the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers
and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and
off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction
by facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community
discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that link
mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it, since I
provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been reasonable
for you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no
issue with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link that
I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that I
don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may make I
will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not acknowledge
any of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in
appearance. I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways
to go to the same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways
to access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to
access (some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry
was using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete
list of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is
a web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems
to Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the
obvious "contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight.
Apparently he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel
forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely
trying to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's
still a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx.
In the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations
in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response
to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active
contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy
community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find
by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better
user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer
satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community
discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx
concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made
available in additional languages in the next few days.

In article , "T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good
with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :)


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand that stick with MS news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Bruce Sinclair" wrote
in message ...
In article , "T. Valko"
wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is
good
with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only
willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out
there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :)


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand that stick with MS
news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good
idea.

I agree with you and Bruce.
However...
the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. <g
--
Jim Cone
Portland, Oregon USA



"T. Valko"
wrote in message ...
I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.
--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP

What Biff said was, here's another link to the forums. I didn't sense
any negative tone to his post. I don't know why he reacted so strongly,
but I don't know the history of your interactions.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier
Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
http://peltiertech.com/


On 5/5/2010 7:15 PM, Joe User wrote:
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that
link mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it,
since I provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been
reasonable for you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no
issue with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link
that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that
I don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may
make I will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not
acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in
appearance. I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different
ways to go to the same place. But that does not make you right and me
wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different
ways to access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways
to access (some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always
used, and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx,
which Jerry was using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has
a more complete list of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site
that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups
is a web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a
reliable interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is
perfect.) Also, Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces
that they provide. Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any
way to report problems to Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight.
I just looked for the obvious "contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that
moderator process might work. This is based on two decades of
experience with moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some
insight. Apparently he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of
the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an
alternative if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum.
And I will no longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those
problems, like deleted postings. You have personally benefitted from
that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely
trying to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's
still a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface
that they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least
reliable and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I
am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft
Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the
forums will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to
report problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or
useless (just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this
large. Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone.
Well, perhaps Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich
conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision
is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer
needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active
contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy
community environment with less spam and make answers easier to
find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a
better user and off-topic management platform that will improve
customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important
to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling
out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community
discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx
concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be
made available in additional languages in the next few days.

There are two problems with NNTP, from Microsoft's viewpoint:

1. It's old and unshiny.
2. It was not invented in Redmond.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier
Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
http://peltiertech.com/


On 5/5/2010 7:26 PM, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
In , "T. wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good
with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :)


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards<puts up hand that stick with MS news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.

"Jon Peltier" wrote in message
...
There are two problems with NNTP, from Microsoft's viewpoint:

1. It's old and unshiny.
2. It was not invented in Redmond.

3. They are not able to control it - now they decide what is THE right
answer
4. It doesn't have the highly desirable points (now what can they possibly
be for)

"Jim Cone" wrote in message
...

I agree with you and Bruce.
However...
the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. <g

By gosh, I think he's got it!

"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message news:%
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!

I didn't think it was overreaction.

You seem to have some worthwhile contributions to make yet sometimes you end
up antagonizing people with no apparent reason. I once went out of my way to
help you and spent quite a lot of time in so doing. Maybe in the end it
wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude reply I have ever had
in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you have!

Regards,
Peter T

On Wed, 05 May 2010 23:26:01 GMT,
z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

In article , "T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good
with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :)


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand that stick with MS news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.




As just a user and occasional contributor, I concur with Bruce's analysis. I
went and tried the web interface last night (as I have for other forums in the
past), and found it much more difficult to use than the newsgroups. It crashed
a few times (page not accessible errors).

I have better things to do with my time, so when these newsgroups stop
functioning, I will cut down my participation significantly.
--ron

"Peter T" <peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life <g

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more capable
users amongst us.

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 May 2010 23:26:01 GMT,
z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

In article , "T. Valko"
wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is
good
with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only
willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out
there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :)


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand that stick with MS
news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good
idea.




As just a user and occasional contributor, I concur with Bruce's analysis.
I
went and tried the web interface last night (as I have for other forums in
the
past), and found it much more difficult to use than the newsgroups. It
crashed
a few times (page not accessible errors).

I have better things to do with my time, so when these newsgroups stop
functioning, I will cut down my participation significantly.
--ron

On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"
wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called an NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better than
the Web UI.
--ron

Hi Joe
I didn't sense any negative tone to Biff's post. He posted the same message at
the same time on the other groups, I don't think it had anything to do with your
message, I think you reacted very strongly for nothing,
It's a shame.
That's my opinion.
John


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that link
mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it, since I
provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been reasonable for
you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no issue
with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link that I'm
aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that I
don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may make I
will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not acknowledge any
of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in appearance.
I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways to go to the
same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways to
access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to access
(some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry was
using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list
of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is a
web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to
Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the obvious
"contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight. Apparently
he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely trying
to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" <joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools
and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

I have tried it, it is a tad slow, and you still have the odd groupings in
Answers.

--

HTH

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"

wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more
capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called an
NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better
than
the Web UI.
--ron

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Jon Peltier" wrote in message
...
There are two problems with NNTP, from Microsoft's viewpoint:

1. It's old and unshiny.
2. It was not invented in Redmond.

3. They are not able to control it - now they decide what is THE right
answer
4. It doesn't have the highly desirable points (now what can they possibly
be for)
Three is the key. I think we will get steamrollered.
SG

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Peter T" <peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life <g

LOL!

I expect you've probably been rude to me but that doesn't count <g

Peter

"Peter T" <peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Peter T" <peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life <g

LOL!

I expect you've probably been rude to me but that doesn't count <g


That's what everyone says.

Ok I have tried it. For all of the negative feedback I don't mind it. Could
it be better... Absolutely. But compared to some other on line forums and the
like it is darn good. And heck I even get to have a really cool avatar.

As for points they are par for the course on so many of these sites. I am
with Bob that they are kind of useless. Perhaps I am just bitter since I just
got my gold star in the general questions forum and now they are wiping that
out. Now how is everyone supposed to be impressed.

Things I like... You can edit the post you made. I can not count the number
of times that I had to back track a posting for a typo or just palin silly
mistake. Now I can look smarter by fixing the mistakes...

First pet peave is the use of screen space. There is a lot of wasted space.
I would prefer to seem more content and less junk / blank space.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Bob Phillips" wrote:

I have tried it, it is a tad slow, and you still have the odd groupings in
Answers.

--

HTH

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"

wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more
capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called an
NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better
than
the Web UI.
--ron


.

On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:45:01 -0700, Jim Thomlinson
wrote:

Ok I have tried it. For all of the negative feedback I don't mind it. Could
it be better... Absolutely. But compared to some other on line forums and the
like it is darn good. And heck I even get to have a really cool avatar.

As for points they are par for the course on so many of these sites. I am
with Bob that they are kind of useless. Perhaps I am just bitter since I just
got my gold star in the general questions forum and now they are wiping that
out. Now how is everyone supposed to be impressed.

Things I like... You can edit the post you made. I can not count the number
of times that I had to back track a posting for a typo or just palin silly
mistake. Now I can look smarter by fixing the mistakes...

First pet peave is the use of screen space. There is a lot of wasted space.
I would prefer to seem more content and less junk / blank space.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson

Jim,

Are you referring to the NNTP Bridge? Or the Web UI?

Thanks.
--ron

Are you referring to the NNTP Bridge? Or the Web UI?

Sounds like the web UI.

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:45:01 -0700, Jim Thomlinson
wrote:

Ok I have tried it. For all of the negative feedback I don't mind it.
Could
it be better... Absolutely. But compared to some other on line forums and
the
like it is darn good. And heck I even get to have a really cool avatar.

As for points they are par for the course on so many of these sites. I am
with Bob that they are kind of useless. Perhaps I am just bitter since I
just
got my gold star in the general questions forum and now they are wiping
that
out. Now how is everyone supposed to be impressed.

Things I like... You can edit the post you made. I can not count the
number
of times that I had to back track a posting for a typo or just palin silly
mistake. Now I can look smarter by fixing the mistakes...

First pet peave is the use of screen space. There is a lot of wasted
space.
I would prefer to seem more content and less junk / blank space.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson

Jim,

Are you referring to the NNTP Bridge? Or the Web UI?

Thanks.
--ron

On Thu, 6 May 2010 18:22:26 -0400, "T. Valko" wrote:

Are you referring to the NNTP Bridge? Or the Web UI?

Sounds like the web UI.

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP

Well, I tried the Web UI again and, compared to my Forte Agent newsreader, I
find it cumbersome and more time consuming. I have to do a lot more scrolling
in order to follow a thread -- it seems that it will be a less efficient (more
time-consuming) method of interacting on these forums.
--ron

Avatar - wow I never joined the community so as to have a cool avatar!

Points - I think it is insidious for two reasons, first you get people
points chasing (just look at Experts Exchange), and secondly I fully expect
MS to use those points as some time in the future. And what did obtaining a
gold start give you?

Edit posts - that is a double edged sword, as often a poster will read your
mistaken post before you correct it and may be confused/distracted by it.
You can easily follow-up with a correction, as you can/do in the NGs, but
if you do edit I feel it would be better to leave the original mistake and
then add the correction, it will avoid any chance of confusion.

Screen space - filling the screen with junk, sound like the current MS
philosophy to me generally (style gallery in the ribbon!).


--

HTH

Bob

"Jim Thomlinson" wrote in message
...
Ok I have tried it. For all of the negative feedback I don't mind it.
Could
it be better... Absolutely. But compared to some other on line forums and
the
like it is darn good. And heck I even get to have a really cool avatar.

As for points they are par for the course on so many of these sites. I am
with Bob that they are kind of useless. Perhaps I am just bitter since I
just
got my gold star in the general questions forum and now they are wiping
that
out. Now how is everyone supposed to be impressed.

Things I like... You can edit the post you made. I can not count the
number
of times that I had to back track a posting for a typo or just palin silly
mistake. Now I can look smarter by fixing the mistakes...

First pet peave is the use of screen space. There is a lot of wasted
space.
I would prefer to seem more content and less junk / blank space.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Bob Phillips" wrote:

I have tried it, it is a tad slow, and you still have the odd groupings
in
Answers.

--

HTH

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"

wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't
care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to
your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more
capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called
an
NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better
than
the Web UI.
--ron


.

Yes it is the web UI

I agree that the edit thing could allow users to go back and correct posts
to appear as if they had the correct answer all along. I like it because by
typing is terrible. I have been know to post code with typos and then have to
go back in a new post to correct the typo.

The avatar thing was done tongue in cheek. I am just waiting for someone to
use an 'inappropriate' avatar to see what happens.

MS is not the only company filling their screens with useless junk. We have
software here at work that fills the screen with pretty junk and there is no
way to remove it. Note to software vendors... form should follow function.

Finally the gold star. I don't really care. I don't chase points. I see so
many posters soliciting points and I am with you... why? Perhaps to impress
others but there are individuals around here with medals that don't hold a
candle to others without medals. I like seeing others biographies and
backgrounds which is why you end up seeing my medals. No way to have one
without the other.

My parting word are go to the newsgroup with an open mind. It is certainly
different from the current environment. Some good and some bad. Try not to
make up your mind before you have given it a fair chance. XL2007 also takes a
lot to get used to. It is slow and cumbersome at first. You really need to
give it a chance.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Bob Phillips" wrote:

Avatar - wow I never joined the community so as to have a cool avatar!

Points - I think it is insidious for two reasons, first you get people
points chasing (just look at Experts Exchange), and secondly I fully expect
MS to use those points as some time in the future. And what did obtaining a
gold start give you?

Edit posts - that is a double edged sword, as often a poster will read your
mistaken post before you correct it and may be confused/distracted by it.
You can easily follow-up with a correction, as you can/do in the NGs, but
if you do edit I feel it would be better to leave the original mistake and
then add the correction, it will avoid any chance of confusion.

Screen space - filling the screen with junk, sound like the current MS
philosophy to me generally (style gallery in the ribbon!).


--

HTH

Bob

"Jim Thomlinson" wrote in message
...
Ok I have tried it. For all of the negative feedback I don't mind it.
Could
it be better... Absolutely. But compared to some other on line forums and
the
like it is darn good. And heck I even get to have a really cool avatar.

As for points they are par for the course on so many of these sites. I am
with Bob that they are kind of useless. Perhaps I am just bitter since I
just
got my gold star in the general questions forum and now they are wiping
that
out. Now how is everyone supposed to be impressed.

Things I like... You can edit the post you made. I can not count the
number
of times that I had to back track a posting for a typo or just palin silly
mistake. Now I can look smarter by fixing the mistakes...

First pet peave is the use of screen space. There is a lot of wasted
space.
I would prefer to seem more content and less junk / blank space.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Bob Phillips" wrote:

I have tried it, it is a tad slow, and you still have the odd groupings
in
Answers.

--

HTH

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"

wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't
care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to
your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more
capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called
an
NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better
than
the Web UI.
--ron


.



.

So what should an OP do if they want to post a question about
Programming?......just post it anywhere and let MS sort it out? as
in......

"Select the Best Forum
Select the forum that most closely matches your topic. (Don't worry, if it's
not the right one we'll move it for you.) "



Does this mean MS will read EVERY post and place it where they think it
should be, rather than where the OP posted it and will go to see if there
are any replies. And don't forget, the "Notify me" feature has not worked
for some time.

I started using Excel several years ago, and have progressed to be the GOTO
guy for Excel problems at the company I work for (over 1000 computers). I
have responded to thousands of posts in the Excel Newsgroups, earned a
Master MOUS certification on the side, and learned virtually everything I
know by coming to the various Newsgroups, especially the Excel Programming
Group. I have taught many others how to be better in excel and have
written many many Application Programs in Excel for my Users. Virtually all
of that use of Excel, by those dozens of folks, being a direct decendant of
MY time on the Newsgroups. So not only did the Newsgroups help ME learn,
that knowledge also rolled down hill to help many others. I am sad to see
the loss of my source of learning, and my opportunity to assist others fade
away.

I agree with Jim Thomlinson who says......

I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only
issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that
exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I
read
long ago


Vaya con Dios,
Chuck, CABGx3







"Jim Thomlinson" wrote in message
...
To expand on what I said...

I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only
issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that
exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I
read
long ago. Secondly I am not sure that I like the new categories for XL.
Noteably the programming forum is gone. That being said the current
categories are not perfect either.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Jim Thomlinson" wrote:

I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether
it is
better or worse. Just my 2 cents.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Joe User" wrote:

wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and
least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx.
In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In
fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with
"forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active
contributors to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and
search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx
concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available
in
additional languages in the next few days.


.

My opinion is that it is the precursor to abandoning VBA.
We can look forward to the release of VSTO.Not ("VerySlowToOperate.Not") to handle all Office programming needs.
It will require the $499.00 Office upgrade and a 64 core 16 GHZ processor and Net.Framework 2.234 thru 19.432 installed
on your machine. (The 1500 page manual sold separately).
The upside is that it will be almost as fast as VBA.
Happy Trails.
--
Jim Cone
Portland, Oregon USA



"CLR"
wrote in message ...
So what should an OP do if they want to post a question about
Programming?......just post it anywhere and let MS sort it out? as
in......

"Select the Best Forum
Select the forum that most closely matches your topic. (Don't worry, if it's
not the right one we'll move it for you.) "



Does this mean MS will read EVERY post and place it where they think it
should be, rather than where the OP posted it and will go to see if there
are any replies. And don't forget, the "Notify me" feature has not worked
for some time.

I started using Excel several years ago, and have progressed to be the GOTO
guy for Excel problems at the company I work for (over 1000 computers). I
have responded to thousands of posts in the Excel Newsgroups, earned a
Master MOUS certification on the side, and learned virtually everything I
know by coming to the various Newsgroups, especially the Excel Programming
Group. I have taught many others how to be better in excel and have
written many many Application Programs in Excel for my Users. Virtually all
of that use of Excel, by those dozens of folks, being a direct decendant of
MY time on the Newsgroups. So not only did the Newsgroups help ME learn,
that knowledge also rolled down hill to help many others. I am sad to see
the loss of my source of learning, and my opportunity to assist others fade
away.

I agree with Jim Thomlinson who says......

I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only
issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that
exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I
read
long ago


Vaya con Dios,
Chuck, CABGx3







"Jim Thomlinson" wrote in message
...
To expand on what I said...

I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only
issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that
exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I
read
long ago. Secondly I am not sure that I like the new categories for XL.
Noteably the programming forum is gone. That being said the current
categories are not perfect either.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Jim Thomlinson" wrote:

I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether
it is
better or worse. Just my 2 cents.
--
HTH...

Jim Thomlinson


"Joe User" wrote:

wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they
have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and
least
feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx.
In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will
be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums".
Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In
fact,
they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with
"forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just
a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings
will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide
market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active
contributors to
retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community
environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and
search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to
the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out
tools and
resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx
concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available
in
additional languages in the next few days.


.

Thu, 06 May 2010 06:44:24 -0400 from Ron Rosenfeld
:
I have better things to do with my time, so when these newsgroups stop
functioning, I will cut down my participation significantly.

Why do you think these newsgroups will stop functioning? It's in the
nature of Usenet that a newsgroup, once created, has a life of its
own. Sure, Microsoft won't be driving new traffic here, but that
doesn't stop the rest of us from continuing to read and post.


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...