Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.
it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the
truth.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about
things.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
crap

/me quitely points out that most excel users may not have access to the
tools neccasary to learn databases. Moreover if they DO have the tools there
are far more people able to help with excel than other products. Finally
while databases are really good at handling large numbers of records and
putting controls around data entry, they just can't compete when it comes to
analysing data.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.
it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the
truth.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about
things.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
crap

then get a friggin mySql box and use phpmyadmin.

it's about half as powerful as access-- but leaps and bounds more
powerful then that excel

DATABASES DO ANALYSE DATA

****NUT

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ANALYZE DATA YOU TRENDY MARKETING DIP****.

I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

You are a consumer.
I am a producer.

Go and play with your barbies kiddie

'while databases are really good at handling large numbers of records
and putting controls around data entry (EVERYTHING YOU DIP****S DO IN
EXCEL IS DATA ENTRY) it just can't compete when it comes to analysing
data?'

WHAT THE **** DO YOU TALK ABOUT?

YOU'RE SAYING I CAN'T THROW A COUPLE OF NUMBERS AROUND AND MAKE A
REPORT?

are you challenging me?

how about this.. you have 100 kids sitting around making the same
****ing spreadsheet week in and week out.

and i'll have 1 db developer; building reuseable reports.

i can schedule my reports to get emailed.

meanwhile; you can REWRITE your spreadsheet and EMAIL IT BY HAND.

Are you a pivotTable user? I mean.. do you know how to drag and drop
controls around and make your pretty little pivotTable reports?

Well; kiddo-- OLAP-- as in ANALYSIS SERVICES makes pivotTables about 10
times more powerful.
you can have drillDOWN, drillUP, drillTHROUGH. you can have actions

Excel-- normal excel pivotTables dont do jack **** so go and **** an
excel book for all i care.

i can 'analyse' numbers faster than you can ****ing imagine.

I mean.. have you seen olap pivotTables?

if you excel dorks would stop making spreadsheets; and started building
real database apps-- maybe us database folk could give you real tools.

EVERYWHERE I'VE EVER BEEN DATABASE PEOPLE DO 2/3 OF THE WORK WITH
1/10TH OF THE HEADCOUNT.

SO **** YOURSELF TRENDY FRATBOY.

As it is; 50% of all of the employees across america do nothing but
type **** into excel week in and week out.

i mean-- there is a better way; Access came out 12 years ago, I
believe. IBM has had databases for 30+ years.


There is no way in **** that you can hang with the numbers i throw
around. i mean.. seriously..

people like you are a disease.

people like you are why we have idiots running around building 2
GIGABYTE SPREADSHEETS. I mean.. any workbooks with more than one cell;
is -- by definition-- complex enough to warrant a database.

do you have any comprehension how many ****ed up spreadsheet problems
i've seen in my day?

they really should line you people up and ship you to siberia; because
from where im standing you idiots are betraying america. i mean..
tuh---reason.

you sit there and build the same ****ing spreadsheet week in and week
out. while these kids out in india are throwing around reports like you
woudln't believe.

I mean-- aren't you tired of building the same damn spreadsheet week in
and week out?

you are the fat, lazy assholes that are bringing about the demise of
this country.

STEP OUTSIDE YOUR CUBICLE AND GET A ****ING LIFE. LEARN SOME SKILLS AND
MAYBE YOU'LL BE WORTH $10/HOUR.

AS IT IS; YOU GUYS AREN'T WORTH MINIMUM WAGE.

EXCEL IS A DISEASE AND YOU ALL ARE LEPERS.

yeah.. and then let's have all these spreadsheet newbies learn perl and
python
****ing idiots

learn vba and get over it. start building tools instead of just
running around and patting yourself on the back every 5 minutes because
YAY I CAN CUT AND COPY AND PASTE 10 BILLION TIMES A DAY.

****ing retards.

you really and honestly should be lined up and shot. the world would
be a much better place.

i mean-- what are you contributing to your company?
what are you contributing to society?

are you fighting for the pink team; or are you going to be a database
USER when you grow up?

being able to write queries; being able to write vba... being able to
write HTML.. these are all skills that you guys skate through life
without learning.

in a perfect world; MS would just come out with a half-dozen different
certification levels for Excel.
and then maybe companies could start hiring knowledgeable people.
Maybe MS should take the MCSE model and apply it to spreadsheets; and
start prodding you cattle to actually learn something.

as it is, everyone 'knows excel'-- I know excel. I know excel well
enough that I would rather give head to a homeless man than ever hire a
spreadsheet dork.

i mean.. should you really copy the formula DOWN and copy and paste it
100 times an hour?
****ing idiots.

doesn't that give you 100 copies of the same formula; what happens when
you need to change it?

i mean seriously

WHO IN THE **** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SIT DOWN KIDDIE AND STOP... I MEAN

SHUT THE **** UP GROW THE **** UP

your skillset is REPLACEABLE and this is war.

Eat ****; we're coming to put you out of work

spreadsheet dip****s

wrote...
....
DATABASES DO ANALYSE DATA

They can sum & they can count. Why, they can even average!

Sarcasm aside, any software that can be automated and can string
together arithmetic operations can perform general numerical analysis.
It's not so much the operators and functions that distinguish databases
and spreadsheets, it's the data referencing. There are some tasks for
which RDMBS data structure is beneficial, but there are many
calculation tasks that require plain multidimensional arrays. Sometimes
the only relationship between the data elements in arrays is just index
order.

While databases do many things well, they don't do such things as
matrix arithmetic or optimization well. Those are tasks which require
iterative procedures on simple matrices or indexed arrays. There's a
considerable amount of statistical, engineering and econometric
analysis that involves matrix and array processing. Certainly RDBMS's
can provide the data storage facility, but you're clearly outside your
ken if you believe SQL queries can produce partial correlation
coefficients from stepwise regression.

Yes, there are add-on tools, many of which are proprietary, most of
which cost extra, and nearly all of which aren't found on average Excel
users' PCs. Besides, the choice of add-on product depends on what the
user prefers to use based on a number of different criteria, including
their familiarity with the add-on products available, but usually not
with much weight given to Aaron's Orthodoxy.

I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

OK, I'll make this simple for you. Here's a table representing a 4x4
matrix. Show us, Oh Great Database Sage, the DBMS steps you'd take to
calculate its determinant and inverse. [Treat sequences of spaces and
underscores as field separators, but ignore the leading ones.]

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

Something tells me 99.999% of *rational* Access users would perform
this task by creating an Excel application instance and using its
WorksheetFunction.MInverse and WorksheetFunction.MDeterm to perform
these calculations, but I'm asking you to see how one irrational Access
user would do it.

are you challenging me?
....

Dunno about the other respondent, but I am. See the challenge above.
See my previous challenge to which you never responded (link below).
For a change of pace, quit talking out your backside and PUT UP OR SHUT
UP.

http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en

Harlan Grove wrote:
wrote...
...


I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

OK, I'll make this simple for you. Here's a table representing a 4x4
matrix. Show us, Oh Great Database Sage, the DBMS steps you'd take to
calculate its determinant and inverse. [Treat sequences of spaces and
underscores as field separators, but ignore the leading ones.]

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

Something tells me 99.999% of *rational* Access users would perform
this task by creating an Excel application instance and using its
WorksheetFunction.MInverse and WorksheetFunction.MDeterm to perform
these calculations, but I'm asking you to see how one irrational Access
user would do it.

are you challenging me?
...

Dunno about the other respondent, but I am. See the challenge above.
See my previous challenge to which you never responded (link below).
For a change of pace, quit talking out your backside and PUT UP OR SHUT
UP.



--- snip a bunch of stuff ---

Aaron,

If you can, please show how you would do Harlan's latest challenge in
Access. Please do not resort to some generality like you would use MDX
through Access. Stick to Access and give step by step details. No
broad overview, provide a specific answer.

Other posters who claim as much as you do are held to the same
standards. Just saying you can do this or do that does not make it so.
Please prove your competence with data analysis in Access, which
*you* claim.

Ignore the Excel angle. Please do not even consider it in your reply.
I would like to know how to do it in Access alone.

I do not care how long you have been working on whatever projects and
you can dispense with the preamble rants about anything and everything
Excel (Do you think it is a disease?) You need not worry if I produce
the same report every week. Just answer the challenge from Harlan.

Thanks,
Jay

http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.

technically how would i do this?

i'd take my handy-dandy MSDE install (free with windows basically) and
make a UDF that did this.
then i could take my precious little function and use it whenever i
wanted; and my friends could share it with me.

you see-- databases are designed for multiple users.
your gay-ass spreadsheet program can't even handle a single power user.


procedure minverse(var m1,m2: matrix);
var
i,j,k: integer;
s1,s2,s3: scalar;
m0: matrix;
begin { minverse }
write('(minverse'); flush(output);
m0:=m1;
for i:=0 to lmax do for j:=0 to lmax do szero(m2[i,j]);
for i:=0 to lmax do m2[i,i]:=sone;

for i:=0 to lmax do begin { simple Gauss-Jordan }
s1:=m0[i,i];
m0[i,i]:=sone;
for j:=i+1 to lmax do begin
squot(m0[i,j],s1,s2);
m0[i,j]:=s2;
end;
for j:=0 to lmax do begin
squot(m2[i,j],s1,s2);
m2[i,j]:=s2;
end;

for k:=0 to lmax do if k<i then begin
s1:=m0[k,i];
szero(m0[k,i]);
for j:=i+1 to lmax do begin
sprod(s1,m0[i,j],s2);
sdiff(m0[k,j],s2,s3);
m0[k,j]:=s3;
end;
for j:=0 to lmax do begin
sprod(s1,m2[i,j],s2);
sdiff(m2[k,j],s2,s3);
m2[k,j]:=s3;
end;
end;
end;
write(')'); flush(output);
end { minverse };

wrote:
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.

technically how would i do this?

i'd take my handy-dandy MSDE install (free with windows basically) and
make a UDF that did this.
then i could take my precious little function and use it whenever i
wanted; and my friends could share it with me.

you see-- databases are designed for multiple users.
your gay-ass spreadsheet program can't even handle a single power user.


'--- snip code ---

OK, you found a link to a matrix inverse function. And the
determinant?

How about the specifics? In the Excel newsgroups (possibly in the
Access newsgroups as well), complete step-by-step solutions are
sometimes given. Please do so for me, if you will.

Set me up from start to finish, please. Granted, that request is more
than is normally required and/or offered, but all you have really done
is given the general outline (again), only this time you added some
code you found. Not enough specifics.

Pretend I just stepped off the Excel boat and onto the promised land.
Convert me to your database-is-everything crusade. I'm still
impressionable, unlike that Excel goon Harlan. :)

hahah wow Jay i didnt know there were really living breathing thinking
excel dorks.

i'll make a better example tonight.

-aaron

wrote...
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.
....

Apparently you don't know Pascal code when you see it. Nor do you
recognize procedure calls that aren't built into the Pascal language so
would also need to be translated from other Pascal code. Looking
through the site to which you provided the link, how quickly would
anyone find the code for lmax, sone, squot, sprod and sdiff?

Also, you don't know that 'simple Gauss-Jordan' means *simple* in the
numerical sense, meaning trouble if you have nearly singular matrices
or several large/small values that could lead to overflow/underflow.

Next, it's built into Excel. You'd have to translate it. Since you
couldn't even identify the language, why should anyone believe you'd do
even a half-assed job translating the code into some language which you
claim to know?

As for write once, to repeat, it's built into Excel, so no need to
reinvent this wheel even via translation. Also, Excel's MINVERSE will
be able to invert more nearly singular matrices which will choke the
simple Gauss-Jordan code you provided. If you want some solid code, see

http://library.lanl.gov/numerical/bookcpdf/c2-3.pdf

If there were procedures I needed repeatedly, I'd write 'em once in VBA
and put them in an .XLA add-in. Then I could call those udfs from any
spreadsheet I use. Gosh! Code reuse in Excel! Whoda thunk?!

But you're missing the key point I made: the relative merits of
spreadsheets and databases are often found in their respective data
referencing features. Given the table I provided in my last post, which
I'll repeat here

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

how would you pass this matrix to a database udf? And how would the
code below, which uses the passed parameter m2 as the return value,
need to be modified to become a function returning a matrix result? How
would you convert that matrix result back into a table? Cursors?

Quite a few loose ends in your 'complete solution'.

and just for the record; you trendy asshole

just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

that is why you are a disease. GROUPTHINK numbnuts.

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?
i mean-- you idiots have been coasting for too ****ing long

and you aren't worth minimum wage.

eat **** spreadsheet dip****

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

you can't 'ANALYZE DATA' better than i can.

you sit there and copy and paste the same ****ing thing 100 times. big
****ing deal. you dont deserve 10 cents an hour.

BECAUSE YOU GUYS SIT THERE AND BUILD THE SAME SPREADSHEET WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT.

I mean.. what the **** who do you think you are?

Excel is a disease; and you all are lepers

wrote in message
ups.com...
and just for the record; you trendy asshole

just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

that is why you are a disease. GROUPTHINK numbnuts.

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?
i mean-- you idiots have been coasting for too ****ing long

and you aren't worth minimum wage.

eat **** spreadsheet dip****

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

you can't 'ANALYZE DATA' better than i can.

you sit there and copy and paste the same ****ing thing 100 times. big
****ing deal. you dont deserve 10 cents an hour.

BECAUSE YOU GUYS SIT THERE AND BUILD THE SAME SPREADSHEET WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT.

I mean.. what the **** who do you think you are?

Excel is a disease; and you all are lepers

And you are nothing but a google troll whomis going into my bozo bin *PLONK*

wrote...
....
just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

But the number of users seems to be your primary reason for claiming
VB/VBA/VBS is the best programming language. Why not try some logical
consistency for a change?

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?

Obviously. If most people are writing code in javascript, then the most
legacy code would be in javascript, no? Most code maintenance, in the
short term at least, would require some familiarity with javascript,
no?

Then again, why expect rationality from you? You'd no doubt advocate
ignoring any prior investment in code in other languages, so write all
apps from scratch in VBS.

This doesn't mean that javascript (or COBOL 30 years ago) was the best
language. Unlike you, I haven't made the argument that X is good
because so many people use it. It does seem many people find BASIC's
verbosity comforting relative to the terseness of C and its
descendants. Myself, I use BASIC only because there's no alternative in
some cases.

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

If only you could demonstrate that you know how to do any number
crunching.

How would you identify statistically significant seasonality in sales
data for a given product?

im sorry i dont 'respect' your investment in existing languages.

you are the asshole that is preaching the end of vb-- you started this
arg wimpo

there is no reason for anyone to learn java for any reason. I mean--
clientside is a PITA and it can't compete with good server-side code.


statisitically significant seasonality.. HMMM... well i'd take the MSDE
that ships with ACCESS (or is free from www.asp.net) and i'd use the
stdev function

wrote...
....
you are the asshole that is preaching the end of vb-- you started this
....

I started off only discussing the possible future existence of VB6.
You're the one who conflated that with VBA and VBS. Why don't you try
to stick with the original topic?

statisitically significant seasonality.. HMMM... well i'd take the MSDE
that ships with ACCESS (or is free from www.asp.net) and i'd use the
stdev function

Gosh! All statistical analysis boils down to calculating standard
deviations! Whodda thunk? Apparently not all those Excel or SAS or S
Plus dweebs writing time series texts or wasting college and university
resources holding professorial chairs in statistics, quantitative
psychology or econometrics.

To get an idea how shallow your response is, take a peek at

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256042/html/x816.html

And for most business PC users, it won't matter that MSDE is free if
they don't already have it on their PCs and they're not allowed to
install nonapproved software.

Your responses remind me of the old joke about three
philosophers/mathematicians/etc in a whole figuring how they'd get out
of it. The first says, "Assume we have a ladder . . ."

hey man

it's an easy conversion to vb is all i know

do you really allow people to tell you what kinda perms you have on
your machine?

again; i've told you this before.. maybe these people walk up to you
and see a computer dork so they dont give you perms.

i walk into contracts; and people give me sa/local admin without even
thinking twice. (i think that it has to do with my billrate lol)

and just for the record; yes.. all math does realistically boil down to
PLUS, MINUS, MULTIPLY AND DIVIDE.

yeah.. but what are you gonig to do when you hit a measly 64k rows?

i mean.. i poop in 1m row row incremenets

what are you going to do when you need to SHARE this with another user?
email it to them?

what are you going to do when you hit the 2gb limit IN EXCEL? (i've
breached it; have you?)

and you see.. cobol was know by what 100k people?

VB is the most popular language in the world-- for good reason. because
of spreadsheet dorks like you.

your problem harlan is that you just dont have any comprehension that
a) i can do any math you can but faster
b) im sick and tired of cutting and pasting the same formula 100 times
per day
c) it's less efficient to have 200 copies of the same formula
1) sheer storage
2) accuracy
3) development of these 'super-complex spreadsheets (gag)'

i just think that you guys are a bunch of ****ing idiots.

grow up and lose the training wheels.

START BUILDING _SOLUTIONS_ instead of building the same damn XLS week
in and week out

wrote...
....
a) i can do any math you can but faster

First you'd need to translate that Pascal code for inverting matrices,
no? Then you'd have to figure out the table-to-matrix and
matrix-to-table interface. Then as soon as you come across a nasty
nonsingular matrix, you'll need to go find someone else's matrix
inversion code (which you also won't understand), translate it, ensure
your table to udf interface works, then finally be able to start
performing the calculations I would have finished days before.

b) im sick and tired of cutting and pasting the same formula 100 times per day

So sad.

c) it's less efficient to have 200 copies of the same formula
1) sheer storage
2) accuracy
3) development of these 'super-complex spreadsheets (gag)'
....

You have a point about #1, but it's a trade off with flexibility. There
are times people use computers standalone. That requires some
redundancy.

As for #2, if it's the *same* formula, how would accuracy differ? Or do
you mean the possibility that inconsistencies may arise in spreadsheet
formulas? That's a real problem, but there are tools available that
sensible Excel users or developers should use to detect and fix it.

And with respect to #3, you've demonstrated that you don't really
understand anything more complicated than counting and summing. I'll be
generous and stipulate that you do a minimally competent job of writing
code implementing procedures for which you're given detailed specs by
people who do know more than grade school math.

just for the record; no i dont get any specs; i deliver solutions

half of my work is fixing spreadsheet messes. the other half is fixing
MDB messes.

SQL Server is the answer to all your problems; you guys need to lose
the training wheels and start doing real dev.
i mean-- if you're going to write it; write it correctly the first time
instead of having a 2gb limit and crap performance

and just for the record;

Aaron

If you could respond in a decent fashion without flipping your lid you'd get better
responses.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

Tony

if you could post on here without being a clueless MDB newbie; that
would help also

i dont need responses.

i need people to start speaking the TRUTH.

you guys slam DAP and ADP all day long. you slam VB.

if you dont want an argument; then you guys need to stop talking trash.

all im doing is giving you 10% of your own egocentricism back in your
face.

Gee I don't know about that Tony... This DOES seem to be the most active
thread in the group :-S
"Tony Toews" wrote in message
...

and just for the record;

Aaron

If you could respond in a decent fashion without flipping your lid you'd
get better
responses.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

"Oorang" wrote:

Gee I don't know about that Tony... This DOES seem to be the most active
thread in the group :-S

<chuckle

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

you're a dip****; it's the wrong platform kids

spreadsheets; all spreadsheets-- involve cutting and pasting the same
formula 100 times.

-Aaron

Wow man, don't be all mad at me cause your lack of people skills (which you
are showing right this second) is screwing up your life.

Besides you have no idea what I do for a living. But I'll give you a hint.
One of them is devolop databases. I just happen to feel excel is less labor
intensive for a lot of things. I mean why go to all the trouble to use a
database and set things up manually when it's frequently all prebuilt and at
your fingertips.

Remeber the idea is to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time. Not
prove how smart you are. Or do the "optimum" solution. More over you CAN
email out reports from excel automaticlly you are just ignorant as to how.
Finally even if you email your database reports out, how pray tell would you
make them interactive without emailing out the entire database or setting up
access to said. This get's even more complicated if you have personal
offsite.


wrote in message
ups.com...
and just for the record; you trendy asshole

just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

that is why you are a disease. GROUPTHINK numbnuts.

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?
i mean-- you idiots have been coasting for too ****ing long

and you aren't worth minimum wage.

eat **** spreadsheet dip****

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

you can't 'ANALYZE DATA' better than i can.

you sit there and copy and paste the same ****ing thing 100 times. big
****ing deal. you dont deserve 10 cents an hour.

BECAUSE YOU GUYS SIT THERE AND BUILD THE SAME SPREADSHEET WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT.

I mean.. what the **** who do you think you are?

Excel is a disease; and you all are lepers

EXCEL DOESNT HAVE REPORTS THAT WHY I HATE IT AND I THINK THAT ALL
SPREADSHEET DORKS SHOULD DIE A PAINFUL DEATH.

wrote...
Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

Semantics. No question that they *SHOULD* fix bugs. Lord knows there
are lots of very longstanding bugs in Excel. Problem may be that these
bugs have been around so long that the Excel programmers may consider
them 'features' at this point.

But the only thing Microsoft *NEEDS* to do is earn money. If they can
rake in revenues without fixing bugs, why would they bother? One thing
that must be recognized about Microsoft: no matter how nice & upright
some Microsoft employees may be, Microsoft's corporate culture is, to
be charitable, amoral. Microsoft as an organization is oblivious to
'should' or 'ought'.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.

No doubt. Clearly you failed to appreciate the Microsoft's core
corporate cultu MAKING MONEY COMES FIRST, making decent software is
at best secondary.

it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the truth.

Nope. There are lots of strong coders. You're among the few who seem
not to combine (claimed) programming ability with discretion or the
sense to know what's important to your bosses.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about things.

Inside Microsoft? Presumably the people who work for Microsoft want to
do so, and most of them realize when to shut up in order to continue to
do so.

Outside Microsoft? Do you read the newsgroups? There are frequent
complaints.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
....

When? I've said I use perl. I've said Python is closely tied into
Gnumeric and OpenOffice Calc. I could add that it's possible to use
both (and REXX and Ruby and any other scripting language capable of
Automation) to automate Excel as a background process (though I'll
admit Excel as a background is a huge waste of resources). And I'll
repeat that there's a perl module that allows perl to create and modify
..XLS files without using Excel.

I've responded to unsubstantiated assertions you've made about how
wide-spread you believe VB, VBA and VBS code is. There may be a fair
amount of in-house VB apps in most medium to large corporations, and
there's definitely a lot of VBA code many extant Office document files.
There doesn't seem to be as much VBS code in use. I can't find any
definitive surveys on the most widely used scripting languages, but
from what digging I have done, it seems clear that a very small
fraction at most of web servers running Apache (so about 70% of all web
servers) would be running VBS code.

All of that's beside the point. Nearly all the people who post in
newsgroups for one or the other of the Office applications are looking
for solutions using those applications. VBA is often but not always
relevant, and it's certainly the best scripting language to use with
Office apps because it's built into the Office framework. VB proper and
VBS are mostly irrelevant for Office apps, though .DLLs could be
written in VB and VBS scripts could be added to Office app-generated
HTML files, but neither of those relatively esoteric tasks are relevant
to the vast majority of postings in Office app newsgroups.

Back to the original topic of this thread. VBA's future lifetime is
independent of that of VB6. Microsoft isn't foolish enough to kill off
VBA any time soon, and it'd offer its successor scripting language
(C#A?) as a parallel option for a few version cycles before it'd drop
VBA. So it's hard to see why people writing strictly VBA code for
Office apps should be any more concerned about the fate of VB6 than
that of COBOL. Similarly for VBS - it's use and future lifecycle are
independent of that of VB6.

So it comes down to whether Microsoft revives a VB6-like programming
language. As I've already written, to in-house VB coders who've already
switched to VB.Net (and they've done so in my company) reviving VB6 is
either an irrelevance or an annoyance. It's no longer an alternative.
Microsoft won't win points with or receive revenues from such customers
by reviving VB6. I have no idea what share of former VB6 programmers
have moved on to VB.Net, but if it's more than half, then A Dios VB6,
it was nice knowin' ya.

I'll also repeat that this is what could happen when one relies on
proprietary software. VB6 programmers who believed that Microsoft would
always be there to support them have no one but themselves to blame for
their own naivete. I won't stand in the way of their petition drive to
keep VB6 alive, but I believe it'll be as efficacious and writing Santa
Claus.

i dont think that 1/2 of vb6 programmers have moved to .NOT

i dont believe that you or MS has any comprehension of the market.

i see VBS and VBA as _EXACTLY_ the same as vb.
i mean; they're what.. 10% different syntax?

at most?

it's just riduclous that you really think that newbie spreadsheet dorks
should learn perl, python..

you spreadsheet dorks should just lose the training wheels. that's all
im saying.

and there is nothing wrong with investing in vb6-- whether it be vbs or
vba or vb6.
i mean.. it's the best way to write functions.

functions that you can use in

word, excel, access, dts, asp-- you can use vb6-language for many many
things.

you can't reuse java functions in 10 different environments'
you can't reuse perl or python.. you cant' make a function and perl and
paste it into outlook

you can't do it.

i just think that it's funny that you're such an Excel bigot and yet
you dont know jack **** about using excel.
it's like.. kinda reminds me of how hitler was jewish and he was also
anti-jewish

i mean. what do you smoke for breakfast; anyways?

...and now im making 8x as much money as i was back then.

As an employer, I don't believe that I would pay such a narrow-minded
agitator $8 dollars an hour. It would be refreshing to see you go one
post attempting to come up with something other than a four letter word
to emphasize your point. I doubt that you will change the manner in
which you communicate or the value you place on the right tools for the
right job--whether that be spreadsheets or 'novel' languages. That
is why we will always see you as a belligerent one-trick-pony.

Harlin, thank you for your positive contributions to the community

Regards--Lonnie M.

aaron -

Unlike Mr. Toews, I note that you are neither valuable, nor
professional.

If your use of spreadsheets involves re-creating them several times a
week or 'copying and pasting' 100 times over, perhaps you should get
back to basics.

Press 'F1' on your keyboard, and type the word 'macro' into the speech
bubble that the cute animated assistant offers.
You may well learn something.