Mike wrote...
....
If you do any VB programming you should know that currently the mainstream
support for VB6 ended on March 31, 2005. And if you do any VB coding please
help us and sign the petition that we are sending to Microsoft for
continuation of support!
....
Please help keep a language around that has been here since 1980. It can
make everyones like easier to deal with. Especially us old timers. (smile)

First, don't make patently untrue statements in advocacy. The BASIC
that existed in 1980 is definitely NOT any version of VB, nor even
close to QBASIC. The old, mandatory line number BASIC deserved its
extinction. Visual Basic if you include its immediate predecessor Quick
Basic has only been around since the late 1980s.

Next, this is one of the pleasures of using proprietary languages: the
company that sells the language you've come to depend upon has the
unilateral ability to pull the rug out from under you. It's your own
fault for choosing a proprietary language.

You might want to consider whether it'd be easier to port to
PowerBASIC, RealBASIC or TrueBASIC. It's unlikely any of those BASIC
dialects would sacrifice backward compatibility.

Harlan

you're a ****ing commie, a liar and an asshole

VBA is; was and always will be supported in OFFICE.

this is the most popular language in the WORLD.

wrote...
....
VBA is; was and always will be supported in OFFICE.

this is the most popular language in the WORLD.

You're just a moron. Your capacity for rational discussion in
newsgroups (much less formulating political opinions) compares
unfavorably to most pieces of furniture.

Did I mention VBA? No. VB 6.

VB 6 was never close to the cash cow Office is, so forcing a switch
from VB 6 to either VB.Net or VB 9 isn't going to cost Microsoft much
revenue.

Dropping VBA support from Office would mean instead of most companies
upgrading to the latest Office version over 3 years they'd skip
upgrading users who rely on VBA-intensive applications. Unlike you,
Microsoft isn't that stupid.

Besides, VBA is a bundled scripting language. If one uses proprietary
scriptable software, one kinda expects to have to use proprietary
scripting languages. When have you ever heard of anyone using VBA to
write stand-alone .EXEs or .DLLs?

As for relying on Microsoft supporting VBA way into the distant future,
I wonder what VB 6 developers believed back in 2002? Maybe you don't
need to worry yet, but it's just a matter of time before we see C#A.

yes

i just dont think that you were really explaining that completely.

do you honestly disagree that VB6 / VBS / VBA is the most popular
language in the world?


im sorry that you're an APPLE / MAC / EXCEL kiddie.. but there are
better thigns out there than using
PowerBASIC, RealBASIC or TrueBASIC

i mean-- get real.

I USE THE BEST VB IDE IN THE WORLD.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S CALLED??

MS ACCESS MOFO

wrote...
do you honestly disagree that VB6 / VBS / VBA is the most popular
language in the world?

VBA may be most widely used because it's pretty much all there is in
Office apps, and there's likely more Office users than all the full
time programmers in the world.

VBS? You're joking. If you mean in web pages, it's gotta be WAY BEHIND
Java and PHP.

And VB 6 is only a few short years away from end of support cycle
oblivion. It won't matter how popular it may have been if no one in
their right mind would use it for NEW projects.

im sorry that you're an APPLE / MAC / EXCEL kiddie.. but there are
better thigns out there than using
PowerBASIC, RealBASIC or TrueBASIC

True. Perl, Python, Ruby, C++, Java, even C#. I don't like BASIC in any
dialect.

I USE THE BEST VB IDE IN THE WORLD.
....
MS ACCESS MOFO

Oh, so relevant to most VB 6 developers. The future, like it or not, is
VB.Net or VB 9, Visual Studio and LINQ.

HAND

Linq?

you fairy go and play with your trendy new tool.. just do you 'dont
have to learn sql'

get a life harlan

learn SQL and stop being a wimp
maybe if you used a real language you would have enough time to learn
SQL

little trendy kid; ****.. go play with your spreadsheets. and your
VBA.

and you know what confuses me.. i thoguht that VS was going to be
called VB8 since i thought that VS 2002 = VS7 and VS 2003 = VS 7.1

i just dont think that you have any clue whats out in the real world.

and i hope and pray for the day that you spreadsheet dweebs get kicked
to the curb and replaced by some jr high kid that can do excel better
than you lol

wrote...
Linq?

you fairy go and play with your trendy new tool.. just do you 'dont
have to learn sql'
....

One thing I'm not is a VB developer. Personally, I don't care one way
or the other whether VB 6 gets killed or revived. However, I do think
I've learned how to tell which direction Microsoft is heading in, and
while there may be an outside chance VB 6 will survive, LINQ is here to
stay (until replaced by the next Great New Thing!).

And reread my posts. I know more about SQL and databases than you know
about spreadsheets. 'course that ain't exactly saying much.

LINQ
**** you're the biggest fair-weather fan I've ever met-- let me guess;
you're rooting for the Colts this year and last year you rooted for the
Eagles.. right??

just for the record; i know a lot about spreadsheets.
when I was just out of college; i had to write the same damn
spreadsheets a dozen times a day... i finally figured out how to
automate it and now im making 8x as much money as i was back then.
meanwhile, you're 'scared to be seen as a programmer'.

you're sitting around making the same friggin spreadsheet week in and
week out

AND YOU DESERVE TO BE BEGGING FOR LUNCH MONEY ON 3RD AVENUE. YOUR
SKILLSET IS **NOTHING** EXCEL IS A DISEASE AND YOU HAVEN'T ADAPTED TO
THE 21st CENTURY.

i dont think that you know the slightest thing about databases. I
mean.. why would you be a spreadsheet wimp if you knew ANSI-SQL?

and again-- just for the record.. when I say VB6 I include VBA and VBS.
VB6 IS here to stay whehter Microsoft likes it or not. I mean-- it's
by far the most popular language in the world...

when Office12 comes out and if you can write VB.net inside of Excel and
Access- -then VB.net might have a chance.

as it is; microsoft is too fragmented and disorganized to know their
heads from their asses. is it my fault that MS tried to sell us all on
a version of VB that was.. uh-um.. .LESS POWERFUL?

Does it mean that VB is going away?

VB6 isn't going away; it is never going away

You can pry VB6 out of my cold dead hands after you shoot me.
Because i'll be using it until the day I die (until MS comes out with
something better and FASTER and EASIER).

i mean.. how many access databases use JAVA?
Do you have any comprehension that Access is the worlds most popular
database?

it's true Harlan.. there are more Access applications / databases than
Oracle, DB2 and SQL Server COMBINED.

how many spreadsheets use PHP and PYTHON?

gag me with a spoon harlan; take your trendy **** and shove it.

don't talk **** about vb6; you aren't qualified to even say the word
VB6.
go back to your hole, play with your spreadsheets.

and don't speak unless you're spoken to.. i think that you'll here us
calling 'here harlan, come here baby spreadsheet dork'

wrote...
LINQ
**** you're the biggest fair-weather fan I've ever met-- let me guess;
....

Provide one url to the Google Groups newsgroups archines in which I've
*EVER* said anything positive about any dialect of the BASIC
programming language. Just one.

I'll admit I don't know much about LINQ, having only read about it in
the articles linked to the OP and a few articles in
http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/future/linq/. If you believe
Microsoft is serious about .Net (and you'll lower my estimate of your
intelligence even further if you don't), it seems pretty clear they'll
be pretty serious about LINQ.

And I'm agnostic on the subject.

just for the record; i know a lot about spreadsheets.

Unproven.

when I was just out of college; i had to write the same damn
spreadsheets a dozen times a day... i finally figured out how to
automate it and now im making 8x as much money as i was back then.
meanwhile, you're 'scared to be seen as a programmer'.

I don't spend much of my normal workday programming (or writing
spreadsheet formulas), so it'd be misleading to call myself a
programmer.

And I suppose you had to keep writing the same spreadsheet so many
times until you got it right. Did you ever manage?

i dont think that you know the slightest thing about databases. I
mean.. why would you be a spreadsheet wimp if you knew ANSI-SQL?

Most of the spreadsheet tasks I have I can complete in a fraction of
the time it'd take me to define the tables I'd need to put the data
into in most databases. Access is lots easier, but still not as
efficient FOR ME.

and again-- just for the record.. when I say VB6 I include VBA and VBS.
VB6 IS here to stay whehter Microsoft likes it or not. I mean-- it's
by far the most popular language in the world...

VBA has an entirely different user base. And it *IS* likely to be
around for several more years. [I'm not going to worry until Microsoft
pulls the plug on XLM.]

VBS? Drop the first letter, and that about sums it up.

VB6 will probably be used by independent programmers and small software
development companies until Windows evolves to a state which VB6 can't
support. That's unlikely to happen in the next 10 years. So those
developers may go on using VB6 for a while. In house programmers, on
the other hand, have mostly stopped using VB6 already. Where I work,
they migrated to VB.Net over 2 years ago and have been busy since then
rewriting key applications in VB.Net.

As I see it Microsoft has two choices: let VB6 die (which will **** off
die-hard VB6 developers who don't want to move to VB.Net) or revive it
(which will **** off all the IT departments that have already invested
heavily in migrating from VB6). It's all a question of where the
*FUTURE* revenue will come from.

If Microsoft opts for the former, what are the VB6 die-hards going to
do? Some will stick with VB6 until the bitter end (unreliable revenue
stream, irrational developers). Some will switch to non-Microsoft
development systems (even if RealBASIC's business doubled, it'd still
be puny compared to Microsoft's remaining VB products). And some will
finally move on the Microsoft's successor products (more money for
Microsoft).

If Microsoft opts for the latter, what are the IT departments going to
do? Some will cease migrating to VB.Net and go back to using VB6. Some
will continue migrating. All will be very slow to adopt the next
Microsoft Great New Thing!

In other words, ****ing off the VB6 die-hards is likely to result in
less lost revenue than ****ing off IT departments. If so, VB6 will die
off within a decade no matter how popular it may once have been.

when Office12 comes out and if you can write VB.net inside of Excel and
Access- -then VB.net might have a chance.
....

Doubtful. Still VBA. [If only I could have access to native associative
arrays and regular expressions!]

VB6 isn't going away; it is never going away

Just as there are still some people using WordStar.

You can pry VB6 out of my cold dead hands after you shoot me.
Because i'll be using it until the day I die (until MS comes out with
something better and FASTER and EASIER).

You may be doing so for yourself, but the VB6 jobs are going to become
scarcer & scarcer.

i mean.. how many access databases use JAVA?

How many Access databases power web servers?

Do you have any comprehension that Access is the worlds most popular
database?

There may be more copies of Access in use than any other database
product, but unless most of the web servers running Apache are doing so
under Windows, they ain't running Access. And few banks or insurance
companies I'm aware of are using Access on their mainframes. In terms
of transaction counts, I suspect DB2, Oracle and, yes, SQL Server are
way ahead of Access. There are many more Ford Fiestas than there are
Mack trucks, but who's shipping goods using a fleet of Fiestas?

it's true Harlan.. there are more Access applications / databases than
Oracle, DB2 and SQL Server COMBINED.

If you count all the queries and reports on every machine running
Access, you're probably right. But if you mean in terms of either
transaction counts or system CPU time, Access is way behind. Also, your
'point' may be a good indicator that there may be A LOT of redundant,
duplicate queries and reports on Access machines.

how many spreadsheets use PHP and PYTHON?
....

Dunno about PHP and spreadsheets. It's a VBS killer, not a VBA killer.

Gnumeric and OpenOffice Calc are scriptable using Python. Any more
ignorant questions?

wrote...
a vbs killer ****.. technically, vbs is a php/python killer; isn't it?
....

Watch the Netcraft survey. If you see IIS seriously gaining on Apache,
then IIS would be dragging VBS along with it. But the last time IIS
gained ground against Apache was early 2002, so claims that VBS is
anything more than a distant 4th or 5th place in web page scripting
would appear contrary to the evidence unless there's a ton of intranets
running nothing but VBS. Dunno. My company's intranet is Domino-based,
so decidedly not VBS.

FWIW, checking script code in home pages, my bank uses javascript, my
kids soccer league uses javascript, AAA uses javascript, American
Airlines uses javascript (as do Southwest and United), Amazon.com uses
javascript, Springer Verlag uses javascript, Google uses javascript,
sourceforge.net uses javascript. Even Microsoft itself uses javascript.
Heck, even Microsoft's aspx web pages, e.g.,

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/of...e/default.aspx

use javascript. If VBS was so darn wonderful, why won't Microsoft use
it themselves?

And I just found

http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html

which provides some evidence that PHP is faster than ASP, and both are
dogs compared to CGI (though CGI running compiled C++ rather than
interpretted scripting languages).

yeah. everyone uses javascript.

that doesn't mean that i can't write apps 4 times as fast as your java
kiddies.

that doesn't mean that vbscript isn't the best solution for an intranet
site.

IE has a 85% marketshare. IE is 100% compatabile with vbscript.
I can create a spreadsheet; add a bunch of cells and do whatever i
want.. i can reuse my excel macros-- in a webpage. I can do anything
in the world.

Why would i want to TRANSLATE my vba into java so i could run it
through a webbrowser?

i mean seriously?

I have one language for
a) scripting
b) web development
c) excel macros
d) database apps
e) hardcore database etl
f) hardcore database job management

i mean-- java can't do half of these functions. Oracle and a IBM and a
billion dollars can't do half of these operations.

Don't you wish your langauge was portable like me?
Friggin trendy kids

PHP can't make a spreadsheet. Python and Perl; i mean-- what the hell
have you been smoking?

Why does every developer need to learn 20 million languages?

oh yeah-- you're an IBM shop and they just have people sitting around
makign your life harder to help you make it look like you're busier..
right?

because if your managers KNEW that you jerked off and spent half the
day writing the same damn spreadsheet-- then they knew that you would
be out of a job. So IBM sells you all this crap that isn't necessary;
it doesn't work. And it ISNT RELIABLE ENOUGH.

I just worked at an environment where IBM hosted our AS400 / iSeries
for us.

Do you know what they had the nerve to do? They rebooted out AS400
once a month.
I mean WHY?

WHY WHY WHY?

because IBM can't COMPETE with Windows. Windows is more reliable, more
secure-- than any of this other crap that is put out by IBM.

and just for the record; IIS _IS_ gaining ground on apache. IIS6--
part of Windows Server 2003-- is the best product to ever come out of
redmond. It is fast, stable, secure-- it is almost the same price as
apache. It supports native compression-- so everything in the whole
wide world you do just got 30-50-70% faster.

Does apache do that?
Out of the box?

Just because your company is run by a bunch of IBM con artists; that
doesn't mean that it's the best solution. I mean.. if you need to get
a list of all your users in your company.. how can you get info out of
notes and into an access database?

Can you do that? is it the same as right-click LINK to outlook global
address list

i mean.. i've worked in 2 notes environments recently. and i never
realized how much i loved outlook exchange until i had to start usign
some piece of crap that was slow and not as powerful.

i mean-- why in the hell do you smoke IBM pole?
i mean seriously?

does it taste good?

10 million free sites vs half-a-million million dollar sites?

And IIS vs Apache has nothign to do with VBS vs Javascript vs any of
that other crap you spew.

THERE ARE A LOT OF APACHE CONFIGURATIONS THAT ALLOW VBSCRIPT, FOR
STARTERS.

and just for the record, Harlan.. Java-- is crap
i mean.. you're friggin whacked you crackhead.

for starters, clientside scripting-- all clientside scripting-- is a
disease. **** like that should be done via the server side; and all
you trendy 'yeah but we use ajax'-- i mean

DOES AJAX REALLY TRUMP CRAIGSLIST?
WHY ISN'T CRAIGSLIST AJAX?

What is more relevant for you today, ebay or Craigslist?

more websites should be plain old text; worrying about things like
performance instead of crap like flash and clientside bull****.
all it does is slow down the browser.

MS _DOES_ use vbscript on the server side.. it is automagically
interpreted depending on what browser you're using. can apache do
THAT?

but it's obvious that you're too stupid to know the diff between
clientside and serverside scripting.

i know that they do; i've seen it and written it there. Have you
worked as a web developer at Microsoft?

go play with your spreadsheets, little boy. And your AOL and go and
learn a half dozen languages like perl and python-- all that crap.. I
mean.. it's like.. a carpenter.. that really NEEDS to get better at
swinging a nail and hammer-- they decide to take their efforts and
learn how to jumprope.

does jumping-rope make him better at swinign a hammer and nail?

NO.

Does Perl and Python make you a better spreadsheet dork?

NO.

Does VB / VB6 / VBA / VBS make you a better spreadsheet dork? IT SURE
DOES.
Would SQL make you a better spreadsheet dork?

It sure would, then you could use Access and build SOLUTIONS instead of
building the same damn XLS 4 times per week.

Your method of
a) deciding what to learn
b) deciding what tools to use
c) deciding who is winning the server side war (by looking at
clientside stats)


You are the least scientific person i've ever met. The least practical
person i've ever met Harlan.

i am a firm believer in 2 languages.

vb and php. I'm a big PHP developer. www.squadstudios.com
www.smarkpunk.com -- i mean.. VB just isn't fast enough to do this
****; i'll be the first to admit it.

php is very very powerful.

and I dont believe that CGI is faster than ANYTHING. I mean-- CGI is
crap kid.

and just for the record-- the URL from wrensoft; where you compare php
and asp and all that crap -- is this study scientific?

for starters, you are comparing ASP to PHP5-- i mean-- comparing circa
1998 ASP with PHP that is supposed to come out in 2006. i mean; are you
on crack?

grow up harlan.

wrote...
yeah. everyone uses javascript.

that doesn't mean that i can't write apps 4 times as fast as your java
kiddies.
....

Unproven. It's easy to make big claims.

And you're the one constantly drawing the equivalence most widely used
= BEST.

Can't maintain the logical consistency of your arguments, can you?

IE has a 85% marketshare. IE is 100% compatabile with vbscript.

And 100% compatible with darn near all the malware out on the Internet.
What a program!

I can create a spreadsheet; add a bunch of cells and do whatever i
want.. i can reuse my excel macros-- in a webpage. I can do anything
in the world.

Except maintain the consistency of your arguments.

Don't you wish your langauge was portable like me?

Portable between a few Microsoft products. We just don't share the same
definition of 'portable'.

PHP can't make a spreadsheet. Python and Perl; i mean-- what the hell
have you been smoking?

Dunno about PHP and Python, but if you want to create XLS files in per,
visit CPAN and search for the module Spreadsheet-WriteExcel-2.15.

Why does every developer need to learn 20 million languages?
....

They don't. It appears most who write Internet (as opposed to intranet)
find javascript sufficient. And when it isn't, the beauty of languages
that evolved from C is that if you know the basic syntax from one, you
know the basic syntax for all. Python is the odd one out, but it's
already pretty widely used in Linux/BSD/Solaris/Unix and Windows
systems (dunno about Macs).

Do you know what they had the nerve to do? They rebooted out AS400
once a month.
I mean WHY?

WHY WHY WHY?
....

Probably for the same reason it's a good idea to reboot Windows NT4 and
2000 boxes once a week if not more frequently.

I've never worked for companies that used AS/400 minis, only for
companies using mainframes running under MVS and Unix (Solaris
actually) servers.

because IBM can't COMPETE with Windows. Windows is more reliable, more
secure-- than any of this other crap that is put out by IBM.

Dunno about OS/400, but AIX, mainframe Linux, MVS and VM are pretty
solid, though definitely not small box OS's.

and just for the record; IIS _IS_ gaining ground on apache. IIS6--
part of Windows Server 2003-- is the best product to ever come out of
redmond. It is fast, stable, secure-- it is almost the same price as
apache. It supports native compression-- so everything in the whole
wide world you do just got 30-50-70% faster.
....

Apache is free, and when running under Linux, the OS is also free. IIS
may be bundled with Windows Server, but Windows Server ain't close to
free. And your claims about IIS gaining on Apache are refuted by the
Netcraft survey data. IIS hasn't gained ground on Apache in years. Or
do you have your own survey results from tens of millions of web
servers? Or are you just talking out your backside yet again?

Just because your company is run by a bunch of IBM con artists; that
doesn't mean that it's the best solution. I mean.. if you need to get
a list of all your users in your company.. how can you get info out of
notes and into an access database?

It's called NotesSQL. It's an ODBC driver. You do know what ODBC is,
don't you?

THERE ARE A LOT OF APACHE CONFIGURATIONS THAT ALLOW VBSCRIPT, FOR
STARTERS.
....

A quick few Google searches make it seem that Apache::ASP only supports
Perl. You'd need Chilisoft to run VBSCRIPT, but Chilisoft seems to have
negligible market share. See

http://www.securityspace.com/s_surve...d=Q2hpbGlzb2Z0

So where be all these Apache configurations running VBSCRIPT? Mostly in
your imagination?

What is more relevant for you today, ebay or Craigslist?

Neither.

MS _DOES_ use vbscript on the server side.. it is automagically
interpreted depending on what browser you're using. can apache do
THAT?

Opening the quetion whether servers should behave differently for
different browsers.

i know that they do; i've seen it and written it there. Have you
worked as a web developer at Microsoft?
....

Nope. I know you claim to have. Odd that such a valued ex-contractor
has his posts regularly purged from Microsoft's own nntp servers.
You'll find your rants in this thread in Google Groups but not on
msnews.microsoft.com. Wassa madda, they can you because you have the
interpersonal skills of a virulent bacillus?

Now as for server side scripting, since most sites run Apache, it's not
a stretch to infer that most of those sites are running mostly Perl
code. It's a certainty few if are running VB<whatever.

malware ins't a problem

and you dont need to know python and perl to beat it.. i mean.. come on
harlan.. windows antispyware is like what, free?

and for the record, I am at war with MS because they fired me for the
wrong reason.

sql server has some ridiculous holes in it-- im knowledgeable to know,
i used to work for antivirus at Microsoft and i know that firsthand; MS
is behaving irresponsibly.

but that doesnt mean that it's not the best product on the market.

i've worked with DB2 and Oracle and mySql. I know the other products
on the market.

I believe that Microsoft is 'too secretive'. I mean-- all of their
bugs should be in the public domain because we've got just as much
invested in Windows as they do.

and my car got jacked from MS and they dont have cameras in their
parking lots.

i mean-- $70bn in the bank and they can't control a couple of drunk
rich kids from bellevue

i think that MS is crazy for not buying Macromedia. I mean-- they let
that one get away.

but I did a good job for MS; and I do a good job for all my clients.
I have business-- 10 times as much business as I can handle.

I know that MS makes the best products on the market. but they have
grown fat and dumb and lazy. they accept mediocrity. and i dont
believe in that; when you have $70bn in the bank you should fix every
bug and fix it twice.

I have a laundry list of bugs that they won't fix.

it drives me crazy. I got kicked out for kicking and screaming.

I mean.. I worked for MSN Quality of Service; and I got fired for
complaining about hotmail reliability. I mean.. I was having hotmail
failures like 5 times a day on a half-dozen different machines.

and I swear it wasn't a malware/spyware problem. I worked for eTrust.
I spidered PestPatrols database-- for Microsoft-- while working for
Computer Associates. CA then bought CA. I mean...

I just know that you guys are trapped at 10% of your own potential.
Because you are handicapped Excel dorks. Your reliance on Excel is
making you obsolete and you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Database people 'crunch more numbers' than Excel people. Database
people make the world go around.

If spreadsheets were in charge of the internet; there would be no
Amazon, no Google. No Oracle, No IBM. No Ebay, No Craigslist. No
Seattle Times.

No kozmo.com-- none of these magical places would exist if you
spreadsheet people were in charge.

Excel is never the right tool for a single thing. I mean.. all data is
relational and if you can't see it that way; go and take a class.

-Aaron
ADP Nationalist

wrote...
....
and for the record, I am at war with MS because they fired me for the
wrong reason.
....

The world is wrong but Aaron is right. There's treatment for this
affliction.

I have a laundry list of bugs that they won't fix.
....

Don't we all. Microsoft wastes no money on coding that won't generate
many times that in revenue. When in an effective monopoly position,
there are very few worthwhile revenue-generating fixes. Adding new
features (new sources for yet more bugs) gets the programming resources
because that's what sells upgrades.

You're not more cynical than me, just more paranoid.

it drives me crazy. I got kicked out for kicking and screaming.
....

.. . . and whining, and arguing, and in short just being the Aaron with
whom we've all been forced to become acquainted.

Your loss doesn't seem to have hurt Microsoft much.

Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.
it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the
truth.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about
things.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
crap

/me quitely points out that most excel users may not have access to the
tools neccasary to learn databases. Moreover if they DO have the tools there
are far more people able to help with excel than other products. Finally
while databases are really good at handling large numbers of records and
putting controls around data entry, they just can't compete when it comes to
analysing data.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.
it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the
truth.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about
things.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
crap

then get a friggin mySql box and use phpmyadmin.

it's about half as powerful as access-- but leaps and bounds more
powerful then that excel

DATABASES DO ANALYSE DATA

****NUT

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ANALYZE DATA YOU TRENDY MARKETING DIP****.

I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

You are a consumer.
I am a producer.

Go and play with your barbies kiddie

'while databases are really good at handling large numbers of records
and putting controls around data entry (EVERYTHING YOU DIP****S DO IN
EXCEL IS DATA ENTRY) it just can't compete when it comes to analysing
data?'

WHAT THE **** DO YOU TALK ABOUT?

YOU'RE SAYING I CAN'T THROW A COUPLE OF NUMBERS AROUND AND MAKE A
REPORT?

are you challenging me?

how about this.. you have 100 kids sitting around making the same
****ing spreadsheet week in and week out.

and i'll have 1 db developer; building reuseable reports.

i can schedule my reports to get emailed.

meanwhile; you can REWRITE your spreadsheet and EMAIL IT BY HAND.

Are you a pivotTable user? I mean.. do you know how to drag and drop
controls around and make your pretty little pivotTable reports?

Well; kiddo-- OLAP-- as in ANALYSIS SERVICES makes pivotTables about 10
times more powerful.
you can have drillDOWN, drillUP, drillTHROUGH. you can have actions

Excel-- normal excel pivotTables dont do jack **** so go and **** an
excel book for all i care.

i can 'analyse' numbers faster than you can ****ing imagine.

I mean.. have you seen olap pivotTables?

if you excel dorks would stop making spreadsheets; and started building
real database apps-- maybe us database folk could give you real tools.

EVERYWHERE I'VE EVER BEEN DATABASE PEOPLE DO 2/3 OF THE WORK WITH
1/10TH OF THE HEADCOUNT.

SO **** YOURSELF TRENDY FRATBOY.

As it is; 50% of all of the employees across america do nothing but
type **** into excel week in and week out.

i mean-- there is a better way; Access came out 12 years ago, I
believe. IBM has had databases for 30+ years.


There is no way in **** that you can hang with the numbers i throw
around. i mean.. seriously..

people like you are a disease.

people like you are why we have idiots running around building 2
GIGABYTE SPREADSHEETS. I mean.. any workbooks with more than one cell;
is -- by definition-- complex enough to warrant a database.

do you have any comprehension how many ****ed up spreadsheet problems
i've seen in my day?

they really should line you people up and ship you to siberia; because
from where im standing you idiots are betraying america. i mean..
tuh---reason.

you sit there and build the same ****ing spreadsheet week in and week
out. while these kids out in india are throwing around reports like you
woudln't believe.

I mean-- aren't you tired of building the same damn spreadsheet week in
and week out?

you are the fat, lazy assholes that are bringing about the demise of
this country.

STEP OUTSIDE YOUR CUBICLE AND GET A ****ING LIFE. LEARN SOME SKILLS AND
MAYBE YOU'LL BE WORTH $10/HOUR.

AS IT IS; YOU GUYS AREN'T WORTH MINIMUM WAGE.

EXCEL IS A DISEASE AND YOU ALL ARE LEPERS.

yeah.. and then let's have all these spreadsheet newbies learn perl and
python
****ing idiots

learn vba and get over it. start building tools instead of just
running around and patting yourself on the back every 5 minutes because
YAY I CAN CUT AND COPY AND PASTE 10 BILLION TIMES A DAY.

****ing retards.

you really and honestly should be lined up and shot. the world would
be a much better place.

i mean-- what are you contributing to your company?
what are you contributing to society?

are you fighting for the pink team; or are you going to be a database
USER when you grow up?

being able to write queries; being able to write vba... being able to
write HTML.. these are all skills that you guys skate through life
without learning.

in a perfect world; MS would just come out with a half-dozen different
certification levels for Excel.
and then maybe companies could start hiring knowledgeable people.
Maybe MS should take the MCSE model and apply it to spreadsheets; and
start prodding you cattle to actually learn something.

as it is, everyone 'knows excel'-- I know excel. I know excel well
enough that I would rather give head to a homeless man than ever hire a
spreadsheet dork.

i mean.. should you really copy the formula DOWN and copy and paste it
100 times an hour?
****ing idiots.

doesn't that give you 100 copies of the same formula; what happens when
you need to change it?

i mean seriously

WHO IN THE **** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SIT DOWN KIDDIE AND STOP... I MEAN

SHUT THE **** UP GROW THE **** UP

your skillset is REPLACEABLE and this is war.

Eat ****; we're coming to put you out of work

spreadsheet dip****s

and just for the record; you trendy asshole

just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

that is why you are a disease. GROUPTHINK numbnuts.

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?
i mean-- you idiots have been coasting for too ****ing long

and you aren't worth minimum wage.

eat **** spreadsheet dip****

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

you can't 'ANALYZE DATA' better than i can.

you sit there and copy and paste the same ****ing thing 100 times. big
****ing deal. you dont deserve 10 cents an hour.

BECAUSE YOU GUYS SIT THERE AND BUILD THE SAME SPREADSHEET WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT.

I mean.. what the **** who do you think you are?

Excel is a disease; and you all are lepers

wrote in message
ups.com...
and just for the record; you trendy asshole

just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

that is why you are a disease. GROUPTHINK numbnuts.

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?
i mean-- you idiots have been coasting for too ****ing long

and you aren't worth minimum wage.

eat **** spreadsheet dip****

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

you can't 'ANALYZE DATA' better than i can.

you sit there and copy and paste the same ****ing thing 100 times. big
****ing deal. you dont deserve 10 cents an hour.

BECAUSE YOU GUYS SIT THERE AND BUILD THE SAME SPREADSHEET WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT.

I mean.. what the **** who do you think you are?

Excel is a disease; and you all are lepers

And you are nothing but a google troll whomis going into my bozo bin *PLONK*

wrote...
....
DATABASES DO ANALYSE DATA

They can sum & they can count. Why, they can even average!

Sarcasm aside, any software that can be automated and can string
together arithmetic operations can perform general numerical analysis.
It's not so much the operators and functions that distinguish databases
and spreadsheets, it's the data referencing. There are some tasks for
which RDMBS data structure is beneficial, but there are many
calculation tasks that require plain multidimensional arrays. Sometimes
the only relationship between the data elements in arrays is just index
order.

While databases do many things well, they don't do such things as
matrix arithmetic or optimization well. Those are tasks which require
iterative procedures on simple matrices or indexed arrays. There's a
considerable amount of statistical, engineering and econometric
analysis that involves matrix and array processing. Certainly RDBMS's
can provide the data storage facility, but you're clearly outside your
ken if you believe SQL queries can produce partial correlation
coefficients from stepwise regression.

Yes, there are add-on tools, many of which are proprietary, most of
which cost extra, and nearly all of which aren't found on average Excel
users' PCs. Besides, the choice of add-on product depends on what the
user prefers to use based on a number of different criteria, including
their familiarity with the add-on products available, but usually not
with much weight given to Aaron's Orthodoxy.

I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

OK, I'll make this simple for you. Here's a table representing a 4x4
matrix. Show us, Oh Great Database Sage, the DBMS steps you'd take to
calculate its determinant and inverse. [Treat sequences of spaces and
underscores as field separators, but ignore the leading ones.]

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

Something tells me 99.999% of *rational* Access users would perform
this task by creating an Excel application instance and using its
WorksheetFunction.MInverse and WorksheetFunction.MDeterm to perform
these calculations, but I'm asking you to see how one irrational Access
user would do it.

are you challenging me?
....

Dunno about the other respondent, but I am. See the challenge above.
See my previous challenge to which you never responded (link below).
For a change of pace, quit talking out your backside and PUT UP OR SHUT
UP.

http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en

wrote...
....
just because there's more people doing it; it doesn't mean it's the
right thing to do.

But the number of users seems to be your primary reason for claiming
VB/VBA/VBS is the best programming language. Why not try some logical
consistency for a change?

do you really believe that the sheer count of people has anything to do
with what people should learn?

Obviously. If most people are writing code in javascript, then the most
legacy code would be in javascript, no? Most code maintenance, in the
short term at least, would require some familiarity with javascript,
no?

Then again, why expect rationality from you? You'd no doubt advocate
ignoring any prior investment in code in other languages, so write all
apps from scratch in VBS.

This doesn't mean that javascript (or COBOL 30 years ago) was the best
language. Unlike you, I haven't made the argument that X is good
because so many people use it. It does seem many people find BASIC's
verbosity comforting relative to the terseness of C and its
descendants. Myself, I use BASIC only because there's no alternative in
some cases.

you can't crunch numbers better than i can

If only you could demonstrate that you know how to do any number
crunching.

How would you identify statistically significant seasonality in sales
data for a given product?

Harlan Grove wrote:
wrote...
...


I CAN MAKE THE SAME NUMBERS YOU CAN. FASTER.

OK, I'll make this simple for you. Here's a table representing a 4x4
matrix. Show us, Oh Great Database Sage, the DBMS steps you'd take to
calculate its determinant and inverse. [Treat sequences of spaces and
underscores as field separators, but ignore the leading ones.]

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

Something tells me 99.999% of *rational* Access users would perform
this task by creating an Excel application instance and using its
WorksheetFunction.MInverse and WorksheetFunction.MDeterm to perform
these calculations, but I'm asking you to see how one irrational Access
user would do it.

are you challenging me?
...

Dunno about the other respondent, but I am. See the challenge above.
See my previous challenge to which you never responded (link below).
For a change of pace, quit talking out your backside and PUT UP OR SHUT
UP.



--- snip a bunch of stuff ---

Aaron,

If you can, please show how you would do Harlan's latest challenge in
Access. Please do not resort to some generality like you would use MDX
through Access. Stick to Access and give step by step details. No
broad overview, provide a specific answer.

Other posters who claim as much as you do are held to the same
standards. Just saying you can do this or do that does not make it so.
Please prove your competence with data analysis in Access, which
*you* claim.

Ignore the Excel angle. Please do not even consider it in your reply.
I would like to know how to do it in Access alone.

I do not care how long you have been working on whatever projects and
you can dispense with the preamble rants about anything and everything
Excel (Do you think it is a disease?) You need not worry if I produce
the same report every week. Just answer the challenge from Harlan.

Thanks,
Jay

and just for the record;

Aaron

If you could respond in a decent fashion without flipping your lid you'd get better
responses.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

im sorry i dont 'respect' your investment in existing languages.

you are the asshole that is preaching the end of vb-- you started this
arg wimpo

there is no reason for anyone to learn java for any reason. I mean--
clientside is a PITA and it can't compete with good server-side code.


statisitically significant seasonality.. HMMM... well i'd take the MSDE
that ships with ACCESS (or is free from www.asp.net) and i'd use the
stdev function

http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.

technically how would i do this?

i'd take my handy-dandy MSDE install (free with windows basically) and
make a UDF that did this.
then i could take my precious little function and use it whenever i
wanted; and my friends could share it with me.

you see-- databases are designed for multiple users.
your gay-ass spreadsheet program can't even handle a single power user.


procedure minverse(var m1,m2: matrix);
var
i,j,k: integer;
s1,s2,s3: scalar;
m0: matrix;
begin { minverse }
write('(minverse'); flush(output);
m0:=m1;
for i:=0 to lmax do for j:=0 to lmax do szero(m2[i,j]);
for i:=0 to lmax do m2[i,i]:=sone;

for i:=0 to lmax do begin { simple Gauss-Jordan }
s1:=m0[i,i];
m0[i,i]:=sone;
for j:=i+1 to lmax do begin
squot(m0[i,j],s1,s2);
m0[i,j]:=s2;
end;
for j:=0 to lmax do begin
squot(m2[i,j],s1,s2);
m2[i,j]:=s2;
end;

for k:=0 to lmax do if k<i then begin
s1:=m0[k,i];
szero(m0[k,i]);
for j:=i+1 to lmax do begin
sprod(s1,m0[i,j],s2);
sdiff(m0[k,j],s2,s3);
m0[k,j]:=s3;
end;
for j:=0 to lmax do begin
sprod(s1,m2[i,j],s2);
sdiff(m2[k,j],s2,s3);
m2[k,j]:=s3;
end;
end;
end;
write(')'); flush(output);
end { minverse };

and you see.. cobol was know by what 100k people?

VB is the most popular language in the world-- for good reason. because
of spreadsheet dorks like you.

your problem harlan is that you just dont have any comprehension that
a) i can do any math you can but faster
b) im sick and tired of cutting and pasting the same formula 100 times
per day
c) it's less efficient to have 200 copies of the same formula
1) sheer storage
2) accuracy
3) development of these 'super-complex spreadsheets (gag)'

i just think that you guys are a bunch of ****ing idiots.

grow up and lose the training wheels.

START BUILDING _SOLUTIONS_ instead of building the same damn XLS week
in and week out

wrote...
Microsoft needs to fix bugs.

Semantics. No question that they *SHOULD* fix bugs. Lord knows there
are lots of very longstanding bugs in Excel. Problem may be that these
bugs have been around so long that the Excel programmers may consider
them 'features' at this point.

But the only thing Microsoft *NEEDS* to do is earn money. If they can
rake in revenues without fixing bugs, why would they bother? One thing
that must be recognized about Microsoft: no matter how nice & upright
some Microsoft employees may be, Microsoft's corporate culture is, to
be charitable, amoral. Microsoft as an organization is oblivious to
'should' or 'ought'.

they need to raise the bar.

that is all i got fired for saying.

No doubt. Clearly you failed to appreciate the Microsoft's core
corporate cultu MAKING MONEY COMES FIRST, making decent software is
at best secondary.

it's ridiculous to fire a strong coder whose only fault is speakign the truth.

Nope. There are lots of strong coders. You're among the few who seem
not to combine (claimed) programming ability with discretion or the
sense to know what's important to your bosses.

it's ridiculous that there aren't more people that complain about things.

Inside Microsoft? Presumably the people who work for Microsoft want to
do so, and most of them realize when to shut up in order to continue to
do so.

Outside Microsoft? Do you read the newsgroups? There are frequent
complaints.

and i think that it's riduclous that you're sitting there trying to
tell spreadsheet newbies to run out and learn perl, python; all that
....

When? I've said I use perl. I've said Python is closely tied into
Gnumeric and OpenOffice Calc. I could add that it's possible to use
both (and REXX and Ruby and any other scripting language capable of
Automation) to automate Excel as a background process (though I'll
admit Excel as a background is a huge waste of resources). And I'll
repeat that there's a perl module that allows perl to create and modify
..XLS files without using Excel.

I've responded to unsubstantiated assertions you've made about how
wide-spread you believe VB, VBA and VBS code is. There may be a fair
amount of in-house VB apps in most medium to large corporations, and
there's definitely a lot of VBA code many extant Office document files.
There doesn't seem to be as much VBS code in use. I can't find any
definitive surveys on the most widely used scripting languages, but
from what digging I have done, it seems clear that a very small
fraction at most of web servers running Apache (so about 70% of all web
servers) would be running VBS code.

All of that's beside the point. Nearly all the people who post in
newsgroups for one or the other of the Office applications are looking
for solutions using those applications. VBA is often but not always
relevant, and it's certainly the best scripting language to use with
Office apps because it's built into the Office framework. VB proper and
VBS are mostly irrelevant for Office apps, though .DLLs could be
written in VB and VBS scripts could be added to Office app-generated
HTML files, but neither of those relatively esoteric tasks are relevant
to the vast majority of postings in Office app newsgroups.

Back to the original topic of this thread. VBA's future lifetime is
independent of that of VB6. Microsoft isn't foolish enough to kill off
VBA any time soon, and it'd offer its successor scripting language
(C#A?) as a parallel option for a few version cycles before it'd drop
VBA. So it's hard to see why people writing strictly VBA code for
Office apps should be any more concerned about the fate of VB6 than
that of COBOL. Similarly for VBS - it's use and future lifecycle are
independent of that of VB6.

So it comes down to whether Microsoft revives a VB6-like programming
language. As I've already written, to in-house VB coders who've already
switched to VB.Net (and they've done so in my company) reviving VB6 is
either an irrelevance or an annoyance. It's no longer an alternative.
Microsoft won't win points with or receive revenues from such customers
by reviving VB6. I have no idea what share of former VB6 programmers
have moved on to VB.Net, but if it's more than half, then A Dios VB6,
it was nice knowin' ya.

I'll also repeat that this is what could happen when one relies on
proprietary software. VB6 programmers who believed that Microsoft would
always be there to support them have no one but themselves to blame for
their own naivete. I won't stand in the way of their petition drive to
keep VB6 alive, but I believe it'll be as efficacious and writing Santa
Claus.

wrote:
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.

technically how would i do this?

i'd take my handy-dandy MSDE install (free with windows basically) and
make a UDF that did this.
then i could take my precious little function and use it whenever i
wanted; and my friends could share it with me.

you see-- databases are designed for multiple users.
your gay-ass spreadsheet program can't even handle a single power user.


'--- snip code ---

OK, you found a link to a matrix inverse function. And the
determinant?

How about the specifics? In the Excel newsgroups (possibly in the
Access newsgroups as well), complete step-by-step solutions are
sometimes given. Please do so for me, if you will.

Set me up from start to finish, please. Granted, that request is more
than is normally required and/or offered, but all you have really done
is given the general outline (again), only this time you added some
code you found. Not enough specifics.

Pretend I just stepped off the Excel boat and onto the promised land.
Convert me to your database-is-everything crusade. I'm still
impressionable, unlike that Excel goon Harlan. :)

i dont think that 1/2 of vb6 programmers have moved to .NOT

i dont believe that you or MS has any comprehension of the market.

i see VBS and VBA as _EXACTLY_ the same as vb.
i mean; they're what.. 10% different syntax?

at most?

it's just riduclous that you really think that newbie spreadsheet dorks
should learn perl, python..

you spreadsheet dorks should just lose the training wheels. that's all
im saying.

and there is nothing wrong with investing in vb6-- whether it be vbs or
vba or vb6.
i mean.. it's the best way to write functions.

functions that you can use in

word, excel, access, dts, asp-- you can use vb6-language for many many
things.

you can't reuse java functions in 10 different environments'
you can't reuse perl or python.. you cant' make a function and perl and
paste it into outlook

you can't do it.

i just think that it's funny that you're such an Excel bigot and yet
you dont know jack **** about using excel.
it's like.. kinda reminds me of how hitler was jewish and he was also
anti-jewish

i mean. what do you smoke for breakfast; anyways?

hahah wow Jay i didnt know there were really living breathing thinking
excel dorks.

i'll make a better example tonight.

-aaron

wrote...
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mpej/Vol/1/...inear/minverse

i'd translate this from java into vb or TSQL. and then use it in a
database? i'd keep the function in one place and it would be hella easy
to use.
....

Apparently you don't know Pascal code when you see it. Nor do you
recognize procedure calls that aren't built into the Pascal language so
would also need to be translated from other Pascal code. Looking
through the site to which you provided the link, how quickly would
anyone find the code for lmax, sone, squot, sprod and sdiff?

Also, you don't know that 'simple Gauss-Jordan' means *simple* in the
numerical sense, meaning trouble if you have nearly singular matrices
or several large/small values that could lead to overflow/underflow.

Next, it's built into Excel. You'd have to translate it. Since you
couldn't even identify the language, why should anyone believe you'd do
even a half-assed job translating the code into some language which you
claim to know?

As for write once, to repeat, it's built into Excel, so no need to
reinvent this wheel even via translation. Also, Excel's MINVERSE will
be able to invert more nearly singular matrices which will choke the
simple Gauss-Jordan code you provided. If you want some solid code, see

http://library.lanl.gov/numerical/bookcpdf/c2-3.pdf

If there were procedures I needed repeatedly, I'd write 'em once in VBA
and put them in an .XLA add-in. Then I could call those udfs from any
spreadsheet I use. Gosh! Code reuse in Excel! Whoda thunk?!

But you're missing the key point I made: the relative merits of
spreadsheets and databases are often found in their respective data
referencing features. Given the table I provided in my last post, which
I'll repeat here

Fld1__Fld2__Fld3__Fld4
-7__ -24___ -59___ 58
-78__ 65___ 56___ 22
59__ -60___ -31___ 47
35__ -21___ 10____ 1

how would you pass this matrix to a database udf? And how would the
code below, which uses the passed parameter m2 as the return value,
need to be modified to become a function returning a matrix result? How
would you convert that matrix result back into a table? Cursors?

Quite a few loose ends in your 'complete solution'.

...and now im making 8x as much money as i was back then.

As an employer, I don't believe that I would pay such a narrow-minded
agitator $8 dollars an hour. It would be refreshing to see you go one
post attempting to come up with something other than a four letter word
to emphasize your point. I doubt that you will change the manner in
which you communicate or the value you place on the right tools for the
right job--whether that be spreadsheets or 'novel' languages. That
is why we will always see you as a belligerent one-trick-pony.

Harlin, thank you for your positive contributions to the community

Regards--Lonnie M.

wrote...
....
a) i can do any math you can but faster

First you'd need to translate that Pascal code for inverting matrices,
no? Then you'd have to figure out the table-to-matrix and
matrix-to-table interface. Then as soon as you come across a nasty
nonsingular matrix, you'll need to go find someone else's matrix
inversion code (which you also won't understand), translate it, ensure
your table to udf interface works, then finally be able to start
performing the calculations I would have finished days before.

b) im sick and tired of cutting and pasting the same formula 100 times per day

So sad.

c) it's less efficient to have 200 copies of the same formula
1) sheer storage
2) accuracy
3) development of these 'super-complex spreadsheets (gag)'
....

You have a point about #1, but it's a trade off with flexibility. There
are times people use computers standalone. That requires some
redundancy.

As for #2, if it's the *same* formula, how would accuracy differ? Or do
you mean the possibility that inconsistencies may arise in spreadsheet
formulas? That's a real problem, but there are tools available that
sensible Excel users or developers should use to detect and fix it.

And with respect to #3, you've demonstrated that you don't really
understand anything more complicated than counting and summing. I'll be
generous and stipulate that you do a minimally competent job of writing
code implementing procedures for which you're given detailed specs by
people who do know more than grade school math.

wrote...
....
you are the asshole that is preaching the end of vb-- you started this
....

I started off only discussing the possible future existence of VB6.
You're the one who conflated that with VBA and VBS. Why don't you try
to stick with the original topic?

statisitically significant seasonality.. HMMM... well i'd take the MSDE
that ships with ACCESS (or is free from www.asp.net) and i'd use the
stdev function

Gosh! All statistical analysis boils down to calculating standard
deviations! Whodda thunk? Apparently not all those Excel or SAS or S
Plus dweebs writing time series texts or wasting college and university
resources holding professorial chairs in statistics, quantitative
psychology or econometrics.

To get an idea how shallow your response is, take a peek at

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256042/html/x816.html

And for most business PC users, it won't matter that MSDE is free if
they don't already have it on their PCs and they're not allowed to
install nonapproved software.

Your responses remind me of the old joke about three
philosophers/mathematicians/etc in a whole figuring how they'd get out
of it. The first says, "Assume we have a ladder . . ."

hey man

it's an easy conversion to vb is all i know

do you really allow people to tell you what kinda perms you have on
your machine?

again; i've told you this before.. maybe these people walk up to you
and see a computer dork so they dont give you perms.

i walk into contracts; and people give me sa/local admin without even
thinking twice. (i think that it has to do with my billrate lol)

and just for the record; yes.. all math does realistically boil down to
PLUS, MINUS, MULTIPLY AND DIVIDE.

yeah.. but what are you gonig to do when you hit a measly 64k rows?

i mean.. i poop in 1m row row incremenets

what are you going to do when you need to SHARE this with another user?
email it to them?

what are you going to do when you hit the 2gb limit IN EXCEL? (i've
breached it; have you?)

wrote...
and just for the record; yes.. all math does realistically boil down to
PLUS, MINUS, MULTIPLY AND DIVIDE.

So you calculate fractional powers and logarithms with power series
approximations?

wrote...
yeah.. but what are you gonig to do when you hit a measly 64k rows?

Since I limit myself to no more than 2000 rows in anything I design, doesn't
seem to be an issue.

i mean.. i poop in 1m row row incremenets

Someday you may grow up & stop taking so much pride in your excreting
functions. But if you have nothing else to be proud of . . .

what are you going to do when you need to SHARE this with another user?
email it to them?

Nope. Use batch files to copy files to other offices' file servers into
prespecified locations. Also distribute documentation the same way. Then
send e-mail about the distribution to file servers.

what are you going to do when you hit the 2gb limit IN EXCEL? (i've
breached it; have you?)

I'm not foolish enough to get close to it. If I need to work with that much
data I use other software. That's you're foolish enough to have come close
to this limit only provides further evidence (if such were needed) that
you're clueless.

wrote...
....
do you really allow people to tell you what kinda perms you have on
your machine?
....

If it's not 'my' machine, i.e., I didn't buy it & I don't own it, yes, I do
let the owner (my employer) set my user permissions. They kinda have the
right to do so, no?

i walk into contracts; and people give me sa/local admin without even
thinking twice. (i think that it has to do with my billrate lol)

Must be small companies so desperate for help that they'd even hire you.