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Default File integrity checking?

I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?

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Default File integrity checking?

Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:

I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?

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Default File integrity checking?

If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:
Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:


I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?


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Default File integrity checking?

What exactly are you trying to do?

--JP

On Sep 21, 11:16*am, bogstick
wrote:
I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?

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Default File integrity checking?

You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:

If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:
Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:


I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?





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Default File integrity checking?

I have some old backups of Excel 2003 documents and would like to verify
current copies against them! Therefore i am using the MD5 hashes for
comparing. But obviously this is failing because just opening and closing a
file causes the MD5 to change making the whole exercise useless! I do not
have any issues with any other type of Office 2003 documents.

"JP" wrote:

What exactly are you trying to do?

--JP

On Sep 21, 11:16 am, bogstick
wrote:
I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?


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Default File integrity checking?

Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:

You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:


If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:

Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:



I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?




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Default File integrity checking?

perhaps the modified date is not changed?

bogstick wrote:

I have some old backups of Excel 2003 documents and would like to verify
current copies against them! Therefore i am using the MD5 hashes for
comparing. But obviously this is failing because just opening and closing a
file causes the MD5 to change making the whole exercise useless! I do not
have any issues with any other type of Office 2003 documents.

"JP" wrote:


What exactly are you trying to do?

--JP

On Sep 21, 11:16 am, bogstick
wrote:

I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?



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Default File integrity checking?

If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.

--JP

On Sep 24, 7:36*pm, bogstick
wrote:
I have some old backups of Excel 2003 documents and would like to verify
current copies against them! Therefore i am using the MD5 hashes for
comparing. But obviously this is failing because just opening and closing a
file causes the MD5 to change making the whole exercise useless! I do not
have any issues with any other type of Office 2003 documents.


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Default File integrity checking?

Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:

Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:

You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:


If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:

Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:



I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?







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Default File integrity checking?

No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?

"JP" wrote:

If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.

--JP

On Sep 24, 7:36 pm, bogstick
wrote:
I have some old backups of Excel 2003 documents and would like to verify
current copies against them! Therefore i am using the MD5 hashes for
comparing. But obviously this is failing because just opening and closing a
file causes the MD5 to change making the whole exercise useless! I do not
have any issues with any other type of Office 2003 documents.



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Default File integrity checking?

I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.

--JP

On Sep 26, 3:17*pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?

"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.


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Default File integrity checking?

What suggestion?

"JP" wrote:

I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.

--JP

On Sep 26, 3:17 pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?

"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.



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Default File integrity checking?

To check the file size and last modified date instead.

--JP

On Sep 28, 3:19*am, bogstick
wrote:
What suggestion?



"JP" wrote:
I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.


--JP


On Sep 26, 3:17 pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?


"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.


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Default File integrity checking?

With the FC command what changes are evident. Is this perhaps some
"accessed" time stamp?

bogstick wrote:

Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:


Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:


You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:



If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:


Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:




I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?







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Default File integrity checking?

I already answered that!
See post 9/26/2009 12:16 Pm PST!

I said the file size and date modified do not change!
What this means is somehow the files have change just from being opened and
closed without affecting the above!

"JP" wrote:

To check the file size and last modified date instead.

--JP

On Sep 28, 3:19 am, bogstick
wrote:
What suggestion?



"JP" wrote:
I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.


--JP


On Sep 26, 3:17 pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?


"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.



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Posts: 11
Default File integrity checking?

The FC results are from what i remember about 9 or 10 hex characters?

I have just randomly opened and closed some Excel 2003 documents and the
Date Accessed do not change. Unless you're talking about some other Excel
specific timestamp? So are you not able to reproduce my issues?

"Bob I" wrote:

With the FC command what changes are evident. Is this perhaps some
"accessed" time stamp?

bogstick wrote:

Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:


Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:


You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:



If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:


Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:




I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?






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Default File integrity checking?

Using the /b switch it looks like 5 bytes change. the first at 046c
offset and the last at 470 offset. the first increments by 16 and the
last increments by one. I don't know the purpose. I think it is save to
say that if you are same modified date and file size then the two files
are the same worksheets.

bogstick wrote:

The FC results are from what i remember about 9 or 10 hex characters?

I have just randomly opened and closed some Excel 2003 documents and the
Date Accessed do not change. Unless you're talking about some other Excel
specific timestamp? So are you not able to reproduce my issues?

"Bob I" wrote:


With the FC command what changes are evident. Is this perhaps some
"accessed" time stamp?

bogstick wrote:


Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:



Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:



You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:




If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:



Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:





I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?





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Default File integrity checking?

What I'm saying is that I don't understand your goal. Are you trying
to verify backup integrity, or compare Excel files using MD5 hashes?

If the MD5 hashes change constantly, use another method to compare
files, or continue to press the MD5 issue?

--JP

On Sep 28, 3:08*pm, bogstick
wrote:
I already answered that!
See post 9/26/2009 12:16 Pm PST!

I said the file size and date modified do not change!
What this means is somehow the files have change just from being opened and
closed without affecting the above!



"JP" wrote:
To check the file size and last modified date instead.


--JP


On Sep 28, 3:19 am, bogstick
wrote:
What suggestion?


"JP" wrote:
I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.


--JP


On Sep 26, 3:17 pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?


"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.

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Default File integrity checking?

Yes i am trying to do a casual backup integrity check!
I use MD5 as its easy and quick to compare files between directories.
Excel 2003 is the only file format that fails.
In fact, i have tried a bunch of different hash signature checks and they
also fail!

Bob I above has already confirmed that there is a slight change (5 bytes)
just from opening and closing a file.

Are you suggesting there is something out there that i could use just for
this issue specifically??

"JP" wrote:

What I'm saying is that I don't understand your goal. Are you trying
to verify backup integrity, or compare Excel files using MD5 hashes?

If the MD5 hashes change constantly, use another method to compare
files, or continue to press the MD5 issue?

--JP

On Sep 28, 3:08 pm, bogstick
wrote:
I already answered that!
See post 9/26/2009 12:16 Pm PST!

I said the file size and date modified do not change!
What this means is somehow the files have change just from being opened and
closed without affecting the above!



"JP" wrote:
To check the file size and last modified date instead.


--JP


On Sep 28, 3:19 am, bogstick
wrote:
What suggestion?


"JP" wrote:
I don't know, but I think you should stick with my suggestion.


--JP


On Sep 26, 3:17 pm, bogstick
wrote:
No, the file size and modified dont change. I tried Excel 2003 files under
Excel 2003 and Excel 2007, and the issue affects both. How is it that FC is
picking up a difference yet the file size and last modified date remained
unchanged?


"JP" wrote:
If the MD5 hashes aren't matching up, I would check the file size and
last modified date instead.




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Default File integrity checking?

Great you confirmed the issue but i dont understand your theory.

If one file is a backup of the other, the the two should be exactly the same
for both Date Modified and File size. The only thing that has happened is
that i ve opened and closed the original file.
Are you saying Excel 2003 files include a count for how many times you view
it?

"Bob I" wrote:

Using the /b switch it looks like 5 bytes change. the first at 046c
offset and the last at 470 offset. the first increments by 16 and the
last increments by one. I don't know the purpose. I think it is save to
say that if you are same modified date and file size then the two files
are the same worksheets.

bogstick wrote:

The FC results are from what i remember about 9 or 10 hex characters?

I have just randomly opened and closed some Excel 2003 documents and the
Date Accessed do not change. Unless you're talking about some other Excel
specific timestamp? So are you not able to reproduce my issues?

"Bob I" wrote:


With the FC command what changes are evident. Is this perhaps some
"accessed" time stamp?

bogstick wrote:


Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:



Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:



You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:




If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:



Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:





I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?






  #22   Report Post  
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Posts: 897
Default File integrity checking?

No, I'm saying that you should stop polluting your goal statement (to
check backup files) with a solution (use MD5 hashes). You've
demonstrated that the MD5 hashes for Excel files aren't a reliable way
to compare files. If so, why continue to bother with them? Just use
the file size and/or last-modified date to verify that a file copy is
the most up-to-date backup.

--JP

On Oct 1, 10:37*am, Bogstick
wrote:
Yes i am trying to do a casual backup integrity check!
I use MD5 as its easy and quick to compare files between directories.
Excel 2003 is the only file format that fails.
In fact, i have tried a bunch of different hash signature checks and they
also fail!

Bob I above has already confirmed that there is a slight change (5 bytes) *
just from opening and closing a file.

Are you suggesting there is something out there that i could use just for
this issue specifically??



"JP" wrote:
What I'm saying is that I don't understand your goal. Are you trying
to verify backup integrity, or compare Excel files using MD5 hashes?


If the MD5 hashes change constantly, use another method to compare
files, or continue to press the MD5 issue?

  #23   Report Post  
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Default File integrity checking?

Agreed with you, if the filename and last-modified date are the same
for both, the files could safely be considered the same (for most
purposes). I'm sure others could also suggest additional criteria.

--JP


On Sep 28, 3:54*pm, Bob I wrote:
Using the /b switch it looks like 5 bytes change. the first at 046c
offset and the last at 470 offset. the first increments by 16 and the
last increments by one. I don't know the purpose. I think it is save to
say that if you are same modified date and file size then the two files
are the same worksheets.

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Default File integrity checking?

No, I'm simply pointing out what changes and where. As to the solution
to your original problem. Recommend you check file size and modification
date as to determine "sameness". If you wish to continue with the MD5
check, convert the 2003 files to 2007.

Bogstick wrote:

Great you confirmed the issue but i dont understand your theory.

If one file is a backup of the other, the the two should be exactly the same
for both Date Modified and File size. The only thing that has happened is
that i ve opened and closed the original file.
Are you saying Excel 2003 files include a count for how many times you view
it?

"Bob I" wrote:


Using the /b switch it looks like 5 bytes change. the first at 046c
offset and the last at 470 offset. the first increments by 16 and the
last increments by one. I don't know the purpose. I think it is save to
say that if you are same modified date and file size then the two files
are the same worksheets.

bogstick wrote:


The FC results are from what i remember about 9 or 10 hex characters?

I have just randomly opened and closed some Excel 2003 documents and the
Date Accessed do not change. Unless you're talking about some other Excel
specific timestamp? So are you not able to reproduce my issues?

"Bob I" wrote:



With the FC command what changes are evident. Is this perhaps some
"accessed" time stamp?

bogstick wrote:



Yes i am opening Excel 2003 files with Excel 2007.
And yes the MD5 signature changes each time the file is opened and closed!
Are you able to replicate this with a blank document?

"Bob I" wrote:




Ok, are you opening and closing the "Excel 2003" files with Excel 2007?
And if so, do they change every time you open and close them, or is it
just the first time.

bogstick wrote:




You are right! This seems to be an issue only with Excel 2003 files!
When I used FC command, there was a small difference picked up!
I tried with 2007 .xlsx and the MD5 no longer changed!

So this is a fault of Excel 2003 documents? I wonder what the workaround
would be now if I were to still compare current Excel 2003 documents with
backup copies?

"Bob I" wrote:





If you do a FC (windows file compare) between a copy of the file that
has been opened and one that hasn't, what is listed as different. (.xlsx
files don't change for me)

bogstick wrote:




Anyone???

What is causing Excel documents to give different MD5 checksum values when
nothing is changed other than opening and closing the file??

"bogstick" wrote:






I like to routinely check my documents against backups by comparing MD5
signatures.
However, I find this impossible with Excel files because the MD5 value
changes just from opening and closing documents. I do not have this problem
with Word documents or any other type of file.
Could someone advise if there is an Excel setting that is causing this? If
so, do I need to use another file integrity checking method? What?





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Default File integrity checking?

I had the same problem, and after several hours reading through several forums and pages I found the root cause of the problem and solution, so I'll be copy&pasting my answer on the forums I read.

There seems to be an issue with excel files, in particular Excel 2003 xls files, whenever they get opened in Excel, even if they don't get changed and don't get saved, Excel automatically updates some of the file's metadata, such as the "Document Properties and Personal Information" and "Last Accessed Statistics", therefore the file every time it gets opened changes a little bit, and this makes that the MD5 changes also.


To learn to view the advanced properties for an excel file:
http://www.ablebits.com/office-addin...nt-properties/


Solution:


One way to avoid this problem is to remove "document properties and personal information".


Remove hidden data and personal information from Office documents. Excel 2007:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/ex...010037593.aspx


Remove hidden data and personal information from Office documents. Excel 2013, Excel 2010:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/st...010354331.aspx

Other way to avoid this would be to use xlsx files. I have been trying to replicate this behavior in xlsx files, but it seems it only happens on xls (2003).

Regards,

Caridad J. Valenzuela R.
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