I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

You may have better luck posing your question to the developers themselves,
via their blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/excel/

Dave
--
Brevity is the soul of wit.


"keithrmanning" wrote:

I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Since brevity is the soul of wit and since my last post was anything but
brief ...

.... Hav pstd there. Thks. K

"Dave F" wrote:

You may have better luck posing your question to the developers themselves,
via their blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/excel/

Dave
--
Brevity is the soul of wit.


"keithrmanning" wrote:

I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Keith -

Which version of Excel 2007? I had a lot of trouble with this kind of thing
in earlier beta versions, but I recall that in B2TR it wasn't too bad. I
don't recall if it was completely fixed, but I was no longer swearing at it.
For that reason.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"keithrmanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Jon
I am using Beta 2. It could be an incompatibility they haven't got to yet.
But the fact that it works so consistently (in compatibility mode and in new
mode) and the fact that the selection pane only has pictures on it and does
not include form objects makes me despondent that they have changed the
architecture here and not bothered about the compatibility of deep functions
that few people use.

"Jon Peltier" wrote:

Keith -

Which version of Excel 2007? I had a lot of trouble with this kind of thing
in earlier beta versions, but I recall that in B2TR it wasn't too bad. I
don't recall if it was completely fixed, but I was no longer swearing at it.
For that reason.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"keithrmanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Beta 2 but not the TR? Your symptoms sound familiar from a while back.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"keithrmanning" wrote in message
...
Jon
I am using Beta 2. It could be an incompatibility they haven't got to yet.
But the fact that it works so consistently (in compatibility mode and in
new
mode) and the fact that the selection pane only has pictures on it and
does
not include form objects makes me despondent that they have changed the
architecture here and not bothered about the compatibility of deep
functions
that few people use.

"Jon Peltier" wrote:

Keith -

Which version of Excel 2007? I had a lot of trouble with this kind of
thing
in earlier beta versions, but I recall that in B2TR it wasn't too bad. I
don't recall if it was completely fixed, but I was no longer swearing at
it.
For that reason.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"keithrmanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Following Dave F's suggestion I posted this on msdn. Given that they
are in the thick of going golden I wasn't too hopeful. However, I got
an excellent response in less than 12 hours! A confirmation that
pictures and form objects are in separate z stacks in 2007; a full
explanation of why; a workaround that sounds like it will solve my
problem in the long term - even if they don't fix my problem in a later
release. Very impressive response [I take back half of the things I
have said about MS :) ]

I am not posting the details here as I have not had time to test them
out yet. However, if anyone wants to know details and if the workaround
has any problems, I should have all the details in a day or two.

Keith

keithrmanning wrote:
I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith

Keith -

I for one would appreciate your follow-up.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"keithrmanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
Following Dave F's suggestion I posted this on msdn. Given that they
are in the thick of going golden I wasn't too hopeful. However, I got
an excellent response in less than 12 hours! A confirmation that
pictures and form objects are in separate z stacks in 2007; a full
explanation of why; a workaround that sounds like it will solve my
problem in the long term - even if they don't fix my problem in a later
release. Very impressive response [I take back half of the things I
have said about MS :) ]

I am not posting the details here as I have not had time to test them
out yet. However, if anyone wants to know details and if the workaround
has any problems, I should have all the details in a day or two.

Keith

keithrmanning wrote:
I use form controls (not ActiveX) extensively in Excel 2003. I also use
pictures to make the workbooks more attractive.

When I open these workbooks in 2007 the order (front to back) of the
pictures and controls is different from 2003. Even worse, I cannot
reset the order in 2007.

In 2003 the form controls and pictures were in the same order
hierarchy. So, you could have some form controls in front of a picture
and other controls behind it (** see below for explanation of why I
want to do this). In 2007 all form controls are in front of all
pictures (or so it seems). Bringing a picture to the front still leaves
it behind all controls - or sending a control to the back still leaves
in in front of all pictures. If you open the selection pane (in Page
Layout) it provides a list of pictures whose order can be rearranged,
but it does not list any controls - again indicating that they are not
in the same heirarchy.

This is a big compatibility problem for me as it appears that my
extensive collection of tools will look different (and pretty crappy)
in 2007 - so much for compatibility. It would also take away a useful
feature for developing new tools.

I'm hoping that I have missed something and someone will be able to
tell me how to make my 2003 workbooks work properly in 2007.

** I'm sure some people are saying "Why would you want to put a form
control behind a picture? It would be hidden and useless." One example
is group boxes. They are ugly black boxes that you can't format; by
placing them behind a picture they still perform their function (like
grouping a set of radio buttons) but they are hidden from view. There
are lots of other more subtle tricks that involve combining hidden form
objects with pictures or other graphic objects. All of these will be
incompatible and will go away if MS has really changed the architecture
of layers in this incompatible way. Another reason this is important is
that form objects are not "macros" and don't cause the workbook to
require macro execution to be enabled; thus, you can build quite
powerful interactive tools that will run on any Office installation
without warning messages or requiring macros to be enabled. That's why
I use form objects rather than ActiveX or macros for these tools. It
will be a sad blow if MS has eliminated this power in 2007.

Keith