One loads a spreadsheet into Excel; never mind there are calculations
(NO macros).
Then one exits Excel and gets the CRAP message; never mind you did
NOTHING but look at it.
How does one get rid of this CRAP response?

One loads a spreadsheet into Excel; never mind there are calculations (NO
macros).
Then one exits Excel and gets the CRAP message; never mind you did NOTHING
but look at it.
How does one get rid of this CRAP response?

Any formulas will recalculate automatically and so Excel assumes changes have
been made as a result. If you just want to view, try opening 'Read Only'!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

One loads a spreadsheet into Excel; never mind there are calculations
(NO macros). Then one exits Excel and gets the CRAP message; never
mind you did NOTHING but look at it. How does one get rid of this
CRAP response?

Any formulas will recalculate automatically and so Excel assumes
changes have been made as a result. If you just want to view, try
opening 'Read Only'!

The OP never mentioned which *version* of Excel he is using. As I
recall, as of Excel 2007, and later, the default setting was not to
auto-calculate on loading a spreadsheet, but in prior versions the
default was to recalculate the formulae on loading the document.

Here's a Youtube video showing how to enable/disable automatic formula
updating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzR6Hds8sw
https://spreadsheeto.com/recalculate...resh-formulas/

The problem with disabling auto-calculate on loading the document is
that cells with formulae won't get updated for other cells whose data
would change on load, like datestamps. The user would need to remember
to hit F9 before he prints an open document to force an immediate recalc
of all formulae; however, users often forget this, so what they print is
indeed what the spreadsheet shows, but not what the formulated cells
should actually be showing to make correct their formulated content.
The problem gets compounded when formulae link between worksheets.

GS wrote:

One loads a spreadsheet into Excel; never mind there are calculations
(NO macros). Then one exits Excel and gets the CRAP message; never
mind you did NOTHING but look at it. How does one get rid of this
CRAP response?

Any formulas will recalculate automatically and so Excel assumes
changes have been made as a result. If you just want to view, try
opening 'Read Only'!

The OP never mentioned which *version* of Excel he is using. As I
recall, as of Excel 2007, and later, the default setting was not to
auto-calculate on loading a spreadsheet, but in prior versions the
default was to recalculate the formulae on loading the document.

I have every version up to 2016 plus 365, all at default settings for this; -
they all prompt to save after viewing sheets!

Here's a Youtube video showing how to enable/disable automatic formula
updating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzR6Hds8sw
https://spreadsheeto.com/recalculate...resh-formulas/

This has always been the built-in method for managing Calculation in Excel for
as far back as I can remember (v4.0)!<g

The problem with disabling auto-calculate on loading the document is
that cells with formulae won't get updated for other cells whose data
would change on load, like datestamps. The user would need to remember
to hit F9 before he prints an open document to force an immediate recalc
of all formulae; however, users often forget this, so what they print is
indeed what the spreadsheet shows, but not what the formulated cells
should actually be showing to make correct their formulated content.
The problem gets compounded when formulae link between worksheets.

I agree!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzR6Hds8sw
https://spreadsheeto.com/recalculate...resh-formulas/

This has always been the built-in method for managing Calculation in
Excel for as far back as I can remember (v4.0)!<g

That's what I thought, too. I don't have Excel on my home PC to test.
Although there is an automatic recalculation setting in Excel, I have to
wonder if that only applies while the document is loaded; i.e.,
forumated cells become dynamic in getting automatically updated while
you are in the spreadsheet. Automatic calculation while within the
spreadsheet is not necessarily the same as for automatic calculation
when *loading* the spreadsheet.

Back when I did have Excel (starting with XP/2002 and then up to 2019
with an Office 365 subscription), I had a spreadsheet showing my IRA
account and its monthly values, so I could track the fund's performance.
It had some cells with formulae. Just opening the spreadsheet to only
look at it and then close it resulted in getting prompted to save. With
all the clicking to load Excel and browse to the spreadsheet to open it,
or using File Explorer to browse to the spreadsheet file and
double-click on it, or navigate to Start Menu - My Documents -
Finances folder to double-click on the .xls file, two clicks to unload
the spreadsheet (one on the X titlebar button, another to click No on
the prompt) versus just 1 click seemed a trivial nuisance.

For my spreadsheets, there aren't many formulated cells. In contrast,
some users complain about the auto-recalc-on-load feature because they
have so many formulae or they take long to calculate. Opening the
document takes a long time. They have to wait until they can, say,
update a value in a single cell and then close the document. Might be
some huge spreadsheet with hundreds of columns, thousands of rows,
multiple linked worksheets, and either lots of formulae or very
complicated formulae all of which take time to recalculate on a document
load. If auto-calc is set to Manual, the auto-recalc-on-save makes them
wait for the document to unload. Users wanting to make an incremental
update to the document don't like having to sit around waiting for all
the recalculations.

Again, since I don't have Excel, the following is from what I've read.
In Excel, go to Tools - Options - Calculation (navigation may differ
in different versions of Excel) and set to Manual. Supposedly that
disables auto-calculation (but I don't know if that is only when editing
an already loaded document or also when loading it). In addition,
deselect the Recalculate Before Save option in Excel. Just remember
that you are then responsible for hitting F9 when you want the
formulated cells to reflect correct values.

The OP has formulae in the cells of his spreadsheet. That means those
cells' values can change. The only way to be sure if there is a change
is to perform the calculation again: might have the same value, might
not, but won't know until the calculation is performed. Maybe the two
options mentioned above will get the OP what he wants for behavior;
however, he'll have to remember to hit F9 to update all those formulated
cells to either see what is their current value, before printing the
document, or before using it elsewhere (since a document, like a Word
file, can link to and even embed an Excel spreadsheet).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/pre...peed-important

Excel is an editor. Opening a document in edit mode means changes are
likely hence the defaults for automatic recalc (on load, on change, or
on exit/save). If the OP wants to only view the spreadsheet in
read-only mode, don't double-click the .xls file as that would [try to]
load it into Excel in editable mode. Load Excel and use its File -
Open Read-Only menu; see:

https://excel.tips.net/T002223_Openi...Read-Only.html

Alternatively use an Excel viewer program to make sure the document is
opened in read-only mode. Microsoft used to provide Excel Viewer (free)
which was read-only mode, but they retired that program; however, some
download or archive web sites may still have a copy of it (e.g.,
https://filehippo.com/download_microsoft_excel_viewer/). There are 3rd
party viewers (some free), too.

He could right-click on the file in Windows Explorer and flag it
read-only; however, since it is an editor, I suspect Excel would popup a
warning when double-clicking on the .xls file which would attempt to
load in edit mode, so another CRAP message to see. Also, if the OP
edited the file, he could not do a simple save since the original file
is read-only flagged, and would have to use Save As to save into a
differently named file.

If the OP wants the option to sometimes open the spreadsheet in
read-only mode or sometimes edit it, he could go into that spreadsheet's
password properties and just enable the "Read-only recommended" option.
But that might be viewed by the OP as another CRAP message to see when
loading the document (rather than when unloading it). See:

https://support.office.com/en-us/art...e-34b8ddc0beb5
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/disa...cel-32586.html

GS wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzR6Hds8sw
https://spreadsheeto.com/recalculate...resh-formulas/

This has always been the built-in method for managing Calculation in
Excel for as far back as I can remember (v4.0)!<g

That's what I thought, too. I don't have Excel on my home PC to test.
Although there is an automatic recalculation setting in Excel, I have to
wonder if that only applies while the document is loaded; i.e.,
forumated cells become dynamic in getting automatically updated while
you are in the spreadsheet. Automatic calculation while within the
spreadsheet is not necessarily the same as for automatic calculation
when *loading* the spreadsheet.

Back when I did have Excel (starting with XP/2002 and then up to 2019
with an Office 365 subscription), I had a spreadsheet showing my IRA
account and its monthly values, so I could track the fund's performance.
It had some cells with formulae. Just opening the spreadsheet to only
look at it and then close it resulted in getting prompted to save. With
all the clicking to load Excel and browse to the spreadsheet to open it,
or using File Explorer to browse to the spreadsheet file and
double-click on it, or navigate to Start Menu - My Documents -
Finances folder to double-click on the .xls file, two clicks to unload
the spreadsheet (one on the X titlebar button, another to click No on
the prompt) versus just 1 click seemed a trivial nuisance.

For my spreadsheets, there aren't many formulated cells. In contrast,
some users complain about the auto-recalc-on-load feature because they
have so many formulae or they take long to calculate. Opening the
document takes a long time. They have to wait until they can, say,
update a value in a single cell and then close the document. Might be
some huge spreadsheet with hundreds of columns, thousands of rows,
multiple linked worksheets, and either lots of formulae or very
complicated formulae all of which take time to recalculate on a document
load. If auto-calc is set to Manual, the auto-recalc-on-save makes them
wait for the document to unload. Users wanting to make an incremental
update to the document don't like having to sit around waiting for all
the recalculations.

Again, since I don't have Excel, the following is from what I've read.
In Excel, go to Tools - Options - Calculation (navigation may differ
in different versions of Excel) and set to Manual. Supposedly that
disables auto-calculation (but I don't know if that is only when editing
an already loaded document or also when loading it). In addition,
deselect the Recalculate Before Save option in Excel. Just remember
that you are then responsible for hitting F9 when you want the
formulated cells to reflect correct values.

The OP has formulae in the cells of his spreadsheet. That means those
cells' values can change. The only way to be sure if there is a change
is to perform the calculation again: might have the same value, might
not, but won't know until the calculation is performed. Maybe the two
options mentioned above will get the OP what he wants for behavior;
however, he'll have to remember to hit F9 to update all those formulated
cells to either see what is their current value, before printing the
document, or before using it elsewhere (since a document, like a Word
file, can link to and even embed an Excel spreadsheet).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/pre...peed-important

Excel is an editor. Opening a document in edit mode means changes are
likely hence the defaults for automatic recalc (on load, on change, or
on exit/save). If the OP wants to only view the spreadsheet in
read-only mode, don't double-click the .xls file as that would [try to]
load it into Excel in editable mode. Load Excel and use its File -
Open Read-Only menu; see:

https://excel.tips.net/T002223_Openi...Read-Only.html

Alternatively use an Excel viewer program to make sure the document is
opened in read-only mode. Microsoft used to provide Excel Viewer (free)
which was read-only mode, but they retired that program; however, some
download or archive web sites may still have a copy of it (e.g.,
https://filehippo.com/download_microsoft_excel_viewer/). There are 3rd
party viewers (some free), too.

He could right-click on the file in Windows Explorer and flag it
read-only; however, since it is an editor, I suspect Excel would popup a
warning when double-clicking on the .xls file which would attempt to
load in edit mode, so another CRAP message to see. Also, if the OP
edited the file, he could not do a simple save since the original file
is read-only flagged, and would have to use Save As to save into a
differently named file.

If the OP wants the option to sometimes open the spreadsheet in
read-only mode or sometimes edit it, he could go into that spreadsheet's
password properties and just enable the "Read-only recommended" option.
But that might be viewed by the OP as another CRAP message to see when
loading the document (rather than when unloading it). See:

https://support.office.com/en-us/art...e-34b8ddc0beb5
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/disa...cel-32586.html

Excellent observations on your part! The prompt to save is a 1 key response
anyway so I don't see why the OP can't just hit the "n" key, OR use Ctrl+S
before closing if auto-calcs need to be saved.

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for spreadsheets?

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?

LibreOffice Calc. However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought. Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc. You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff. Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free. I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version). I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations. While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same. Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before). Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client. I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates). EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants. I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365. Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic. I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature). Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time. Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me. I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook. For me, free is
nice but not essential.

On 17-Aug-2019 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?
LibreOffice Calc. However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought. Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc. You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff. Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free. I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version). I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations. While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same. Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before). Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client. I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates). EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants. I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365. Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic. I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature). Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time. Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me. I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook. For me, free is
nice but not essential.

And, while we're on the subject of alternatives for Excel, the killer
for me is the need for macros - based on Excel's visual basic for
applications. I've been using Excel in its various incarnations for over
20 years and practically every spreadsheet I use has a home-grown
programming function associated with it.Â* As far as I'm aware, none of
the alternative spreadsheets, free or paid for, allows the import of
Excel macros.

GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?

LibreOffice Calc. However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought. Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc. You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff. Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

I've also found LO Calc a complete learning curve initially, but I was forced
to get into it by user clients many years ago. I now offer my Excel templates
as Calc templates as a result.

But LibreOffice is free. I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version). I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations.

I can say the same!

While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same. Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before).

I keep the offline help for v6.0 just so I don't have to go online. It does me
fine for the most part dealing with the basics.

I also have fpSpread.ocx (v7.0/8.0) for making my own stand-alone spreadsheet
apps in VB6. I got into this when MS 1st introduced the Ribbon UI; - my Excel
app users freaked out about the initial disorientation it threw at them so I
needed a way to duplicate my Excel applications outside of MS Office.

But fpSpread, however, is not 100% Excel compatible; it only supports the old
xls file formats! Nor can it accept inserting existing Excel sheets; - I have
to build them via code. It also only works with WinForms solutions in VS2017 so
I've since bought the SpreadsheetGear DotNet Assemblies to use with C# there.
Bonus is I can use all my Excel templates with this and work with it pretty
much the same as I did using Excel as my development platform.

Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client. I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates). EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

I've been using ThunderBird ever since MS dropped their old forums and wiped
out all my data, mail, and news feed threads. Does a great job for mail,
newsfeeds, and calendar IMO! It's never screwed up on me either!

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants. I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365.

I have Personal for $CAD79/yr, installable on up to 5 devices. I didn't think
I'd go for it at all but given the cost per device it's the best deal going
IMO!

Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic. I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature). Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time. Their
People app is really bad.

Most Win10 apps and built-in utilities are spyware mining our data and sending
it 'home' under the hood. I disable Auto-Updates so it runs when I want it to,
and I block as much spyware as possible using 3rd party software.

I find the ThunderBird calendar, reminders, contacts (Phone Book), events,
tasks, and sidebars very efficient.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I do believe you can let your 365 subscription lapse a year or two and when you
renew, it gets updated. During the lapse period it remains as last updated. (I
could be wrong, though!)

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me. I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook. For me, free is
nice but not essential.

Any MS-based mail client apps, servers, and computer logins allows MS direct
access; - bad idea IMO! Turns out Gmail is heading in the same direction.
Perhaps I should start using my own website mailboxes!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On 17-Aug-2019 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?
LibreOffice Calc. However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought. Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc. You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff. Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free. I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version). I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations. While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same. Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before). Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client. I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates). EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants. I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365. Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic. I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature). Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time. Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me. I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook. For me, free is
nice but not essential.

And, while we're on the subject of alternatives for Excel, the killer for me
is the need for macros - based on Excel's visual basic for applications. I've
been using Excel in its various incarnations for over 20 years and
practically every spreadsheet I use has a home-grown programming function
associated with it.* As far as I'm aware, none of the alternative
spreadsheets, free or paid for, allows the import of Excel macros.

True, but LO Calc offers its Sun macro feature. While it may be a serious
learning curve from VBA, it's similar to DotNet programming in many ways. Also,
there has been talk (for some time now) of supporting VBA in future; - I think
they won't license VBA from MS but rather built their own 'converter' utility
if they go there at all!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

One loads a spreadsheet into Excel; never mind there are calculations
(NO macros). Then one exits Excel and gets the CRAP message; never
mind you did NOTHING but look at it. How does one get rid of this
CRAP response?

Any formulas will recalculate automatically and so Excel assumes
changes have been made as a result. If you just want to view, try
opening 'Read Only'!

The OP never mentioned which *version* of Excel he is using. As I
recall, as of Excel 2007, and later, the default setting was not to
auto-calculate on loading a spreadsheet, but in prior versions the
default was to recalculate the formulae on loading the document.

Here's a Youtube video showing how to enable/disable automatic formula
updating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzR6Hds8sw
https://spreadsheeto.com/recalculate...resh-formulas/

The problem with disabling auto-calculate on loading the document is
that cells with formulae won't get updated for other cells whose data
would change on load, like datestamps. The user would need to remember
to hit F9 before he prints an open document to force an immediate recalc
of all formulae; however, users often forget this, so what they print is
indeed what the spreadsheet shows, but not what the formulated cells
should actually be showing to make correct their formulated content.
The problem gets compounded when formulae link between worksheets.

Thanks.

VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?

LibreOffice Calc. However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought. Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc. You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff. Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free. I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version). I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations. While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same. Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before). Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client. I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates). EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants. I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365. Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic. I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature). Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time. Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me. I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook. For me, free is
nice but not essential.

Tweets regarding Microsoft Office 365 Outlook [online paid version]
This highlights some of the problems with that garbage program.

Jul 4
Honey, the email in my Microsoft Office 365 Outlook cannot be sent to a
gmail account (not found).
** It also refuses to recognize , despite the
fact I sent an e-mail from
there to (and saw it there).

Apr 18
Honey, the ransomware in my Microsoft Office 365 Outlook inbox cannot be
accessed or blocked, only hidden.
** I also see spam mail that has a green image header that states "This
email is from a trusted source".
Obviously, the rest of the e-mail does a fair job of representing
Microsoft.
** I also see spam mail that has a yellow image header in similar vein.
Unfortunately i have been rather
aggressive in deleting garbage e-mails and cannot find an example.
That image text starts with something like "this is spam" and ends
with text similar to "this is not
spam". Yes, it DOES contradict itself; and the e-mail IS spam.

Apr 17
Honey, my Microsoft Office 35 Outlook inbox is cluttered with my sent
emails. Is the cloud raining?
**This is a VERY serious problem. SENT e-mails have NO business arriving
in the INBOX.
It is becoming more prevalent.
·
Apr 16
Honey, the door to our home has been destroyed by Microsoft Office 365
Outlook.
*** Microsoft Office 365 Outlook is in an infinite GET loop.

* ALSO: Impossible to cut/copy text from a file into an e-mail.
Result is a bunch of blank lines.

malone wrote:
On 17-Aug-2019 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?
LibreOffice Calc.Â* However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought.Â* Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there.Â* There's
not really a migration to Calc.Â* You have to learn it anew.Â* Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff.Â* Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free.Â* I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version).Â* I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran into
its limitations.Â* While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same.Â* Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before).Â* Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client.Â* I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates).Â* EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants.Â* I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365.Â* Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic.Â* I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature).Â* Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time.Â* Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me.Â* I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it.Â* I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook.Â* For me, free is
nice but not essential.

And, while we're on the subject of alternatives for Excel, the killer
for me is the need for macros - based on Excel's visual basic for
applications. I've been using Excel in its various incarnations for over
20 years and practically every spreadsheet I use has a home-grown
programming function associated with it.Â* As far as I'm aware, none of
the alternative spreadsheets, free or paid for, allows the import of
Excel macros.
Hell, macros seem to be almost unknown, and what functionality exists
is rather limited to say the least.

Robert Baer wrote:

Hell, macros seem to be almost unknown, and what functionality exists
is rather limited to say the least.

You haven't looked. I've seen an entire accounting business app,
including JIT ordering, payroll, and payables built on VBA in Excel.
Their program gave no visual hint that it was based on Excel as it had
its own GUI (also programmed in VBA). You can build your own interfaces
for input. When I saw it, I thought "That's based on Excel?" Then I
found out that VBA can make queries to read or write to an SQL database,
so the much faster database could handle faster huge amounts of data
isntead of trying to pile it all into a spreadsheet; i.e., Excel+VBA was
a frontend to the database. This is no different than any other program
that uses a CLI or API to a database. In fact, I've read reports
claiming Excel can become unstable after reaching a 1.5GB dataset size,
so using a database makes a lot of sense for big data.

Such use of embedded Excel is no different than resellers building their
own turnkey systems based on whatever OS, software, and specialty
programs they bundle together with their choice of hardware to provide a
solution to the customer. The customer is buying a washine machine and
doesn't care which brand and model of motor is used inside. With
"programs" based on Excel, the reseller just bundles Excel with their
product. The customer may not even know they have Excel. This is like
other companies that incorporate Quicken into their turnkey program, and
the customer gets everything, including the Quicken license(s).

However, to me, that limits their "program" to just Excel, so if Excel
fades away then so does the demand for their vertical market software.
That was a very long time ago, like maybe 25 years back. Excel is
Windows only, so any turnkey solution built on Excel will also be a
Windows platform only solution. That doesn't concern many users, since
they're already chosen the OS and then look for what to use on it.

I've read where VBA was used to break the passwords on other
spreadsheets. I've seen financial programs, like stock analysis,
written in VBA for Excel. Although you can write VBA to access a
database, sometimes a macro is better positioned in the database instead
of inside of Excel. VBA is an interpreted script language: no compile,
no p-code. VBA is slower than a compiled program, as is any interpreted
scripting language.

You can define Interfaces for multi-stacked projects, and classes that
support run-time enumeration. A project can be designed in 3 layers:
presentation + business + data. THere is no multi-threading in VBA. It
wasn't designed for that environment. However, you can link VBS
programs to run outside of Excel and use signal/semafore to sync the
processes. You can develop C# and Python COM libraries that can be used
and distributed with your Excel-VBA solution.

VBA even has hardware access. For example, it can open or close the
tray of your CD drive.

Declare Sub mciSendStringA Lib "winmm.dll" (ByVal lpstrCommand As String, _
ByVal lpstrReturnString As Any, ByVal uReturnLength As Long, _
ByVal hWndCallback As Long)

Sub OpenCDTray()
mciSendStringA "Set CDAudio Door Open", 0&, 0, 0
End Sub

Sub CloseCDTray()
mciSendStringA "Set CDAudio Door Closed", 0&, 0, 0
End Sub

You can code a VBA script to enter keystrokes, and move the mouse, like
to the taskbar's Start button, click it, and shutdown your PC. Someone
claimed an Excel Team got Excel to control CAD/CAM hardware. You can
use Microsoft's text-to-voice function with a VBA library.

There is no Undo in VBA scripts. If the script deletes data, it's gone
forever. A good VBA programmer will temporarily cache or version the
old data before deleting it.

There is no version control in VBA. However, there's no version control
in any other programming language you use. Version control is something
added atop of managing your code.

VBA is not a standardized programming language. It is a Microsoft-ism.
It's not like you write VBA for anywhere outside of Office apps, and
changes to VBA are at Microsoft's whim.

You can even have VBA make you a sandwich.

Private Sub makeSammich()

Dim iFoot as Long
Dim iMeatBall as Integer
Dim iProvolone as Variant
Dim strSauce as String
Dim wsSlice as Variant

For Each wsSlice in Application.ThisLoaf.Slices
For iFoot = 1 to 12
With wsSlice
.Add iMeatBall
.Add iProvolone
.Add strSauce
End With
Next iFoot
Next wsSlice

End Sub

Okay, I'm just kidding.

Uh..! I've been an Excel Applications Developer since 2003. That said, there's
a few things in your post I'd like to address:

Yes, Excel UI can be configured such that the user of a solution may not even
realize it's Excel under-the-hood.

No, developers of Excel-based solutions do not ship Excel with their program; -
users MUST have MS Office installed on their machine to use Excel-based
programs.

Yes, VBA can be used to code just about anything because it's based on the
Visual Basic development language which MS Office exposes its component Object
Models to. We cannot, however, access any parts of MS Office components that
are not exposed to VBA.

There's a distinct difference between an Excel Addin and an Excel Application:

Addins work within the user's default Excel UI to add enhancements and/or
extend Excel's usability for task-specific functionality;

Applications use their own instance of the default version of Excel installed
on the user's machine. Typically, these are started from a frontloader.exe
icon on the desktop, which starts its own instance of Excel and configures
its UI as desired, then turns it over to the user. Frontloaders can be written
in any program language capable of implementing Automation. I use VB6 for
mine!

Applications that 'appear' to be Excel-like most will use a spreadsheet
component inside their app as I do with my stand-alone duplicates of my
Excel-based apps. The component can be either an ActiveX control (such as the
fpSpread.ocx I use with VB6 or C# WinForms) or DotNet Assemblies (such as the
SpreadsheetGear assemblies I use with C#). These apps do not require MS Office
be installed because they have no dependancy on Excel; - all features/functions
are built into the spreadsheet control.

VBA is a product-specific macro language used to automate any product (licensed
by MS to use it) that exposes its object model to it, <not just MS Office!

(My SolidWorks CAD software uses it)

To support your claims to what VBA can do in Excel...

Re your ref to CAD/CAM hardwa
Most CNC equipment uses G-code and Basic for programming; - the syntax for this
is different than VBA's and so would definitely not compile in the VBE (ergo,
not run)! G-code programs can be written with any text editor app and so do not
require to be written in any special software environment. Ergo, it is totally
possible to write CNC programs and download them to a CNC machine once saved in
the target's file format. This could be done via VBA using a textbox control on
a userform OR automating a text editor for writing the code.

I did some work for a company that built various models of CNC milling machines
for automating processes involved with automotive engine components. Because
the models varied as to their respective capacities and toolchanger designs,
their had to be different programs written to do the same process on each
machine. This required some complex file management so same processes could use
same filenames for each machine model, but not get mixed up when downloading to
the machines before delivery. (CNC program filenames were numeric,
non-descriptive extenion-less: ie. O0000, O0001, and so on)

As a result I developed CncFiles Manager for Excel (an Addin) so they could
read/write G-code files, file properties, and manage storage for program file
distribution to the respective machine models via their network. This replaced
Excel's toolbars/menubar/context menus with its own during runtime, and
included its own CHM userguide.

This evolved to a stand-alone exe (CncFiles Pro) after I acquired the
fpSpread.ocx and some excellent file explorer controls. Its UI has a
FolderView.ocx on its left side (1/4 width of window in Maximized view or
lMinWid (constant) in Normal view; resizeable by user via a colored divider)
that's always visible, and the fpSpread.ocx beside it along with a
FileView.ocx overlaid in the same space so their visibility can be toggled
to work with program file properties or use as a file explorer. Only CNC
program files could be listed in the fpSpread.ocx where descriptive (embed)
file properties could be viewed, edited, or the files could be opened in
the user's preferred editor for revision.

They also needed a program they could distribute to sales reps for quoting the
various machine models, writing sales orders based on quotes, and submitting
purchase orders to the manufacturer. I wrote their QSP Addin for Excel to
handle this. It included a template worksheet for each model CNC machine
listing all of the tooling and optional features available for the respective
model. (AFAIK, this is still in use today) Sales reps needed to only insert a
value in the Qty field to 'flag' that line item for printing and auto-calc the
value in the Amount field. Clicking the Print button hid all lineitems not
flagged to simplify quotes/orders. This addin also replaced Excel's
toolbars/menubar/context menus with its own during runtime, and included its
own CHM userguide.

...the above addins pretty much took over the Excel UI in terms of menus,
shortcut keys, and appearance even to the point of replacing its window icon
with my addin's icon so you saw it in the taskbar during runtime.

VBA6 was replaced with VBA7 in MS Office 2010. Macros are bit-specific meaning
code must be used in the bit version it was written in.

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On 17-Aug-2019 4:28 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
malone wrote:
On 17-Aug-2019 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
GS wrote:

So if you don't have Excel now then what are you using for
spreadsheets?
LibreOffice Calc.Â* However, I'm finding finding functions in it a lot
harder to find than I thought.Â* Too often I'll finally find what I'm
looking for and wonder why the hell it was buried over there. There's
not really a migration to Calc.Â* You have to learn it anew. Only little
of what I learned in Excel comes forward to Calc other than some very
basic boob stuff.Â* Excel's ribbon logic is more intelligent, too.

But LibreOffice is free.Â* I tried Kinsoft's Office Suite awhile back,
but after a few months of using it they turned it into adwa
printouts
got watermarked, many features got disabled after a 30-day trial period
(and why many reviews were glowing because those authors didn't test
after the trial period), tables couldn't be sorted in docs (not even in
the payware version).Â* I tried Softmaker's FreeOffice, but soon ran
into
its limitations.Â* While Excel and LibreOffic Calc show the spreadsheets
how I expect (from Excel), the other suites didn't visually render them
the same.Â* Still, I'm getting weary of having to go online to search on
how to do something in Calc that I can find a lot faster in Excel (for
what I've used before but also for functions that I've never used
before).Â* Of course, all those free/paid alternate office suites
lack an
e-mail client, calendering, and contacts, so I was looking at Outlook
alternatives, too, like EssentialPIM and em Client.Â* I thought the free
eM Client was good (if you have less than 2 accounts, but I have more)
until it royally ****ed up my contacts both locally and on the server
(massive duplicates).Â* EPIM used to limit to just 2 accounts max, but
https://www.essentialpim.com/pc-version/pro-vs-free indicates they
lifted that restriction.

While MS Office 365 is payware, I wouldn't pay the $99/year that
Microsoft wants.Â* I got it a lot cheaper at eBay at $33/year, but only
after doing lots of watching and research to find legit sellers there.
Now that some other of my family are considering dumping their WinXP
PCs
and moving up to Win10 along with upgrading to much newer versions
of MS
Office, and with Office 365 doling out 5 seats per licence, the cost
per
user is a lot cheaper, so I might go back to Office 365.Â* Plus I find
the Win10 apps for Mail, Calendar, and Contacts to be pathetic.Â* I can
manage using the Mail WinRT/UWP app, but I can't view the raw source of
an e-mail, so I have to use their webmail client for that (and I
look at
the headers often enough that I want that feature).Â* Calendar is okay
but limited on how long to sleep after a reminder shows up, plus I've
encountered problems with no notification at the reminder time.Â* Their
People app is really bad.

By the time I pay for a 3rd party Pro office suite and EPIM Pro, it's
getting close to the price of Office 365, but for just the 1-year
subscription cost versus repaying every year for the subscription
(compared to repaying every 1 to 3 years for the next major verison
update of the 3rd party non-subscriptionware).

I'm not financially throttled, so paying for software isn't some major
aversion to me.Â* I'll keep using LibreOffice for another 5, or more,
months to give it fleshing out to see if I'll stick with it. I did that
with Thunderbird: trialed it for 6 months as my only e-mail client but
dumped it after 6 months and went back to MS Outlook.Â* For me, free is
nice but not essential.

And, while we're on the subject of alternatives for Excel, the killer
for me is the need for macros - based on Excel's visual basic for
applications. I've been using Excel in its various incarnations for
over 20 years and practically every spreadsheet I use has a
home-grown programming function associated with it. As far as I'm
aware, none of the alternative spreadsheets, free or paid for, allows
the import of Excel macros.
Â*Hell, macros seem to be almost unknown, and what functionality exists
is rather limited to say the least.


What an extraordinary statement!

I've used Excel's VBA to control a security system for my property
(amongst other things opening and closing electrically-controlled
gates), control a weather station and as a GUI for my media player
(because I find the functionality of all available players extremely
limited).Â* And many of the pages on my web site are automatically
updated using VBA. Amongst many many other applications which would be
considered by as more spreadsheet-focused. For some of these
applications I can use VB Script - so that they will run on any Windows
machine without needing Excel or MS Office installed. But VBA in Excel
gives you so much more flexibility, especially in terms of graphics and
charts.

GS wrote:

No, developers of Excel-based solutions do not ship Excel with their
program; - users MUST have MS Office installed on their machine to
use Excel-based programs.

Part of the turnkey cost is the customer buying Excel. When a customer
buys device that employs a commercial OS, they don't care and probably
aren't aware that they are buying the OS license. There are tons of
cash registers using embedded Windows, but the grocery store or
corporate business office doesn't care that part of the cost was to get
a Windows license. They bought a product, not its parts.

GS wrote:

No, developers of Excel-based solutions do not ship Excel with their
program; - users MUST have MS Office installed on their machine to
use Excel-based programs.

Part of the turnkey cost is the customer buying Excel. When a customer
buys device that employs a commercial OS, they don't care and probably
aren't aware that they are buying the OS license. There are tons of
cash registers using embedded Windows, but the grocery store or
corporate business office doesn't care that part of the cost was to get
a Windows license. They bought a product, not its parts.

OSes can be licensed to devices as OEM distributable; - Excel must be purchased
for personal use and/or volume licensed for corporate use.

That does not conclude, though, that MS Office comes with Windows. When an
Excel-based developer creates solutions, Excel is used to do that. By
attrition, users of that solution MUST have Excel installed on their machines
prior to using Excel-based solutions. Excel itself is NOT distributable by said
developer(s) and so machines that don't have Excel can't use Excel-based
solutions!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

GS wrote:

No, developers of Excel-based solutions do not ship Excel with their
program; - users MUST have MS Office installed on their machine to
use Excel-based programs.

Part of the turnkey cost is the customer buying Excel. When a customer
buys device that employs a commercial OS, they don't care and probably
aren't aware that they are buying the OS license. There are tons of
cash registers using embedded Windows, but the grocery store or
corporate business office doesn't care that part of the cost was to get
a Windows license. They bought a product, not its parts.

OSes can be licensed to devices as OEM distributable; - Excel must be purchased
for personal use and/or volume licensed for corporate use.

That does not conclude, though, that MS Office comes with Windows. When an
Excel-based developer creates solutions, Excel is used to do that. By
attrition, users of that solution MUST have Excel installed on their machines
prior to using Excel-based solutions. Excel itself is NOT distributable by said
developer(s) and so machines that don't have Excel can't use Excel-based
solutions!

The rep comes to the customer, installs the software solution, and
leaves. Why can't the rep also install Excel? Anyone can buy licenses
to Excel, but who registers it becomes the license owner. The rep
simply registers the Excel he installed to the customer that paid him.
Hell, I can buy a copy of Excel with its candidate license, and install
it on a friend's or family's computer for them to use, and I register it
as them being the licensee.

While the example of cash register mentioned the OS, that's just the OS.
Some POS software must also get installed for that cash registry to do
its job. I've not gotten into POS (Point Of Sale) software to know what
is its typical licensing model.

GS wrote:

Excel must be purchased for personal use and/or volume licensed for
corporate use.

I've just read through the Excel EULA. See:

http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...51bcbc7423.pdf

Nowhere does it state a /single/ retail licence cannot be use for
commercial purpose. In a turnkey setup, no one would be bundling in a
Home and Student, military, NFR, or CANEX version of Excel or in use for
in a software hosting scenario and those are the only ones where
commercial use is probhited. You inferred that a business would need a
volume license to use Excel. Not according to Microsoft's EULA.

Please indicate where you cite that Excel must be purchases as a volume
license for commercial use, and that a retail license is invalid for
commercial use.

GS wrote:

GS wrote:

No, developers of Excel-based solutions do not ship Excel with their
program; - users MUST have MS Office installed on their machine to
use Excel-based programs.

Part of the turnkey cost is the customer buying Excel. When a customer
buys device that employs a commercial OS, they don't care and probably
aren't aware that they are buying the OS license. There are tons of
cash registers using embedded Windows, but the grocery store or
corporate business office doesn't care that part of the cost was to get
a Windows license. They bought a product, not its parts.

OSes can be licensed to devices as OEM distributable; - Excel must be
purchased for personal use and/or volume licensed for corporate use.

That does not conclude, though, that MS Office comes with Windows. When an
Excel-based developer creates solutions, Excel is used to do that. By
attrition, users of that solution MUST have Excel installed on their
machines prior to using Excel-based solutions. Excel itself is NOT
distributable by said developer(s) and so machines that don't have Excel
can't use Excel-based solutions!

The rep comes to the customer, installs the software solution, and
leaves. Why can't the rep also install Excel? Anyone can buy licenses
to Excel, but who registers it becomes the license owner. The rep
simply registers the Excel he installed to the customer that paid him.
Hell, I can buy a copy of Excel with its candidate license, and install
it on a friend's or family's computer for them to use, and I register it
as them being the licensee.

In the case cited here, I can see your point. What does downloaded software do
to install itself when a user doesn't want any part of MS Office installed?
That's why I bought my own spreadsheet controls; - to not be dependant on
Excel! (I think you're stretching things a bit here!)

While the example of cash register mentioned the OS, that's just the OS.
Some POS software must also get installed for that cash registry to do
its job. I've not gotten into POS (Point Of Sale) software to know what
is its typical licensing model.

Such things as cash registers and the like (POS devices) usually have their own
proprietary software pre-installed which is typically not Windows (or even
Linux). I have written POS apps that run under Windows on PCs, some tied to
accounting software either 3rd party or included in my app. Any Excel-based
versions are also available as stand-alone EXEs for users that don't use MS
Office.

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

Excel must be purchased for personal use and/or volume licensed for
corporate use.

I've just read through the Excel EULA. See:

http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...51bcbc7423.pdf

Nowhere does it state a /single/ retail licence cannot be use for
commercial purpose. In a turnkey setup, no one would be bundling in a
Home and Student, military, NFR, or CANEX version of Excel or in use for
in a software hosting scenario and those are the only ones where
commercial use is probhited. You inferred that a business would need a
volume license to use Excel. Not according to Microsoft's EULA.

No, I did not infer that! See below...

Please indicate where you cite that Excel must be purchases as a volume
license for commercial use, and that a retail license is invalid for
commercial use.

I did not state it MUST be purchased as a volume license; - just saying volume
licenses are available (for any use for that matter). Most IT pros in large
corporations usually prefer volume licenses for whatever MSO editions they run
throughout their networks.

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

Such things as cash registers and the like (POS devices) usually have
their own proprietary software pre-installed which is typically not
Windows (or even Linux). I have written POS apps that run under
Windows on PCs, some tied to accounting software either 3rd party or
included in my app. Any Excel-based versions are also available as
stand-alone EXEs for users that don't use MS Office.

I've seen cash registers and POS terminals getting booted and saw
Windows coming up. However, this is not the full end-user version but
stripped to basic functionality aka Windows Embedded [Standard].

An OS is needed to run the POS. I've not seen commercial POSes that
provided their own boot manager, dispatcher, and all other features of
an OS. They don't want to also dev an OS to sell their POS. They don't
even tell their customers what OS is used because the customers never
supposed to be working at that level. Even enterprise-grade comm
controllers that I've worked on had their own proprietary software but
ran on some variant of UNIX or Linux, and required some special method
to get at the OS level (although that was still controlled by an
interface that restricted what could be done).

I don't know what minimal Windows functionality is needed for Excel.
Maybe Windows Embedded [Standard, Pro, Enterprise] is needed. Windows
Embedded Compact aka Windows CE (for consumer electronics, gaming
consoles, digital receivers, set-top boxes) and Windows Embedded
Automotive (variant of Compact for embedded systems in cars), and
Windows Embedded Handheld (portable devices, like used by delivery
companies where you sign a pad) don't seem like they'd be appropriate to
run Excel. Of course, the full edition of Windows could be installed
(but often stripped of all superfluous software for a POS, like
Calculator, Paint, Notepad, and other non-OS fluff).

GS wrote:

GS wrote:

Excel must be purchased for personal use and/or volume licensed for
corporate use.

I've just read through the Excel EULA. See:

http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...51bcbc7423.pdf

Nowhere does it state a /single/ retail licence cannot be use for
commercial purpose. In a turnkey setup, no one would be bundling in a
Home and Student, military, NFR, or CANEX version of Excel or in use for
in a software hosting scenario and those are the only ones where
commercial use is probhited. You inferred that a business would need a
volume license to use Excel. Not according to Microsoft's EULA.

No, I did not infer that! See below...

Please indicate where you cite that Excel must be purchases as a volume
license for commercial use, and that a retail license is invalid for
commercial use.

I did not state it MUST be purchased as a volume license; - just saying volume
licenses are available (for any use for that matter). Most IT pros in large
corporations usually prefer volume licenses for whatever MSO editions they run
throughout their networks.

But since we got into talking about POS, those are single workstations
(where more than one may be used and communicate with each other), seems
a volume licensing would be throwing away money for unused licenses.
Guess that depends on the size of the store; i.e., mom-n-pop restaurant
or bar versus Walmart.

GS wrote:

Such things as cash registers and the like (POS devices) usually have
their own proprietary software pre-installed which is typically not
Windows (or even Linux). I have written POS apps that run under
Windows on PCs, some tied to accounting software either 3rd party or
included in my app. Any Excel-based versions are also available as
stand-alone EXEs for users that don't use MS Office.

I've seen cash registers and POS terminals getting booted and saw
Windows coming up. However, this is not the full end-user version but
stripped to basic functionality aka Windows Embedded [Standard].

An OS is needed to run the POS. I've not seen commercial POSes that
provided their own boot manager, dispatcher, and all other features of
an OS. They don't want to also dev an OS to sell their POS. They don't
even tell their customers what OS is used because the customers never
supposed to be working at that level. Even enterprise-grade comm
controllers that I've worked on had their own proprietary software but
ran on some variant of UNIX or Linux, and required some special method
to get at the OS level (although that was still controlled by an
interface that restricted what could be done).

I don't know what minimal Windows functionality is needed for Excel.
Maybe Windows Embedded [Standard, Pro, Enterprise] is needed. Windows
Embedded Compact aka Windows CE (for consumer electronics, gaming
consoles, digital receivers, set-top boxes) and Windows Embedded
Automotive (variant of Compact for embedded systems in cars), and
Windows Embedded Handheld (portable devices, like used by delivery
companies where you sign a pad) don't seem like they'd be appropriate to
run Excel. Of course, the full edition of Windows could be installed
(but often stripped of all superfluous software for a POS, like
Calculator, Paint, Notepad, and other non-OS fluff).

Well.., if we're talking about running an Excel-based app then it would need to
be full fledge Windows because NONE of the derivitive OSes support macros,
including the online stuff. That, to me, concludes that anything running the
scaled-down version of Windows as an OS is most likely offering the Excel
Viewer app!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:

GS wrote:

Excel must be purchased for personal use and/or volume licensed for
corporate use.

I've just read through the Excel EULA. See:

http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...51bcbc7423.pdf

Nowhere does it state a /single/ retail licence cannot be use for
commercial purpose. In a turnkey setup, no one would be bundling in a
Home and Student, military, NFR, or CANEX version of Excel or in use for
in a software hosting scenario and those are the only ones where
commercial use is probhited. You inferred that a business would need a
volume license to use Excel. Not according to Microsoft's EULA.

No, I did not infer that! See below...

Please indicate where you cite that Excel must be purchases as a volume
license for commercial use, and that a retail license is invalid for
commercial use.

I did not state it MUST be purchased as a volume license; - just saying
volume licenses are available (for any use for that matter). Most IT pros
in large corporations usually prefer volume licenses for whatever MSO
editions they run throughout their networks.

But since we got into talking about POS, those are single workstations
(where more than one may be used and communicate with each other), seems
a volume licensing would be throwing away money for unused licenses.
Guess that depends on the size of the store; i.e., mom-n-pop restaurant
or bar versus Walmart.

I could see a mom-n-pop restaurant using PC-based software, but most use
industry standard systems where the cash register is networked with a mainframe
along with the management PC(s). I've only ever made PC-based POS apps for
self-employed service contractors for making quotes, invoicing, or doing
detailed job costing. A simple bookkeeping module is usually included for
tracking expenses, income, taxes, P&L, customers, vendors, and bank ledger[s].

I'm a strong advocate for using Excel for everything because it's so flexible
and can dupe anything that Word or PowerPoint can do (albeit not as easily for
the latter!).

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion