Alain,

I'm glad I was able to instigate such an inspired thread.

I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but many of you are so accustomed to
operating within the machine that the logic of your matrix is perfectly valid
to you. Worse yet, some of you react with indignation, if not derision, when
a person suggests that .29 - .28 should equal .010000000000

For you "0.01 *IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS* 0.00999999999999995", but even Excel
doesn't think it is the same thing when using conditional statements.
Moreover, the unpredictability of it makes it even more insidious. I.e., the
problem does not occur for .30 - .29 and many other pairs, so it has the
effect of being a random error generator, IMO.

I realize that the very notion of "customer" is silly and old fashioned, but
to the customer the reaction from those inside the MS matrix appears to be:
"you're a fool to expect the mathematical results to be correct, and a moron
if you don't understand the unpredictable intricacies of floating point
mathematics, and that this imprecision has the blessing of the IEEE!"

Though it appears stupid to you, I was simply expecting .29 - .28 to equal
exactly .01, and I was simply astonished when it didn't, and I honestly could
not imagine why it didn't.

In order to deal with really moronic customers like me (there's that
"customer" word again -- I just can't help myself!), MS would be better
served to provide a more conspicuous forewarning of this possible occurrence.
I realize that it does not behoove an arrogant corporation to phrase it
thusly, but the message should be along the lines that: "In certain
instances, a mathematical result is produced which is not perfectly precise.
Unfortunately, this is unavoidable to due to the limitations inherent to any
calculation algorithm that reduces the values to binary equivalents [link to
technical explanation] and we regret any inconvenience that may present. Here
is a how you can anticipate and minimize the consequences of this problem
[link]€�.

My point is that the explanation from MS should respect the fact that many
of us are reasonably expecting consistent precision (e.g., like .29 - .28 =
..01000), and that we are not prepared for unpredictable and sporadic
exceptions. It's like the clock that strikes thirteen, then you wonder if
all the other times were correct.

....Jeff


"Alain Dekker" wrote:

Hi Jeff,

"Jeff in GA" wrote in message
...
In order to deal with really moronic customers like me (there's that
"customer" word again -- I just can't help myself!), MS would be better
served to provide a more conspicuous forewarning of this possible
occurrence.


If you feel that way about it Jeff then take it up with Microsoft. There
ain't any of them in here, just a bunch of users like yourself.

That's a good point. I don't know who is MS (if anyone) and who isn't.

I guess I was hoping that MS somehow participates in the process of helping
their customers, or otherwise would read these threads out of concern.

What was I thinking?!?

"Kevin Andreoli" wrote:

Jeepers creepers Jeff, are you being dense on purpose or did you just not
sleep well last night???

I'm not from MS nor have I ever met anyone from MS. Mostly the people who
reply in these forums are well-meaning users who are freely giving of their
own time. MS have over a billion customers and if you mulitply that by the
number of different products each uses on average (say Windows, Word, Excel,
COM, VB, .NET, etc) they probably have tens of billions of customers.

Imagine if everyone who thought they were right on some dinky issue, like
yourself, had a personal line to MS-central? Since most questions, like
yours, are ignorant and a waste of time, they'd be swamped with garbage.

Lets face facts, most of humanity, and therefore most of MS customers, are
pretty stupid.

MS are not the most customer-friendly company, I'd agree, but as a software
developer they do an excellent job of providing developer tools and
documentation.

If you want to learn about binary represenation, typed data and other basic
computer concepts, dip your toes into Wikipedia or the Microsoft Developer
Network (MSDN). You'll find all your answers and more there and then next
time you can be the one to feel superior and amused when some moron comes
along and says "hey, 0.29 - 0.28 returned 0.00999999999995, what a load of
crap!".

I thought by this time you'd have calmed down. Hey, maybe you're actually
quite sophisticated and you've been yanking our chains for some fun. Who
knows. For a while this has been amusing but now I'm bored.

Bye, bye.
Alain

"Jeff in GA" wrote in message
...
That's a good point. I don't know who is MS (if anyone) and who isn't.

I guess I was hoping that MS somehow participates in the process of
helping
their customers, or otherwise would read these threads out of concern.

What was I thinking?!?

"Kevin Andreoli" wrote:

MS's explanation is at
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/78113
(linked from the info to which Berndt pointed you).
--
David Biddulph

"Jeff in GA" wrote in message
...
Alain,

....
In order to deal with really moronic customers like me (there's that
"customer" word again -- I just can't help myself!), MS would be better
served to provide a more conspicuous forewarning of this possible
occurrence.
I realize that it does not behoove an arrogant corporation to phrase it
thusly, but the message should be along the lines that: "In certain
instances, a mathematical result is produced which is not perfectly
precise.
Unfortunately, this is unavoidable to due to the limitations inherent to
any
calculation algorithm that reduces the values to binary equivalents [link
to
technical explanation] and we regret any inconvenience that may present.
Here
is a how you can anticipate and minimize the consequences of this problem
[link]".
....

Good article.

"David Biddulph" <groups [at] biddulph.org.uk wrote in message
...
MS's explanation is at
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/78113
(linked from the info to which Berndt pointed you).
--
David Biddulph

"Jeff in GA" wrote in message
...
Alain,

...
In order to deal with really moronic customers like me (there's that
"customer" word again -- I just can't help myself!), MS would be better
served to provide a more conspicuous forewarning of this possible
occurrence.
I realize that it does not behoove an arrogant corporation to phrase it
thusly, but the message should be along the lines that: "In certain
instances, a mathematical result is produced which is not perfectly
precise.
Unfortunately, this is unavoidable to due to the limitations inherent to
any
calculation algorithm that reduces the values to binary equivalents [link
to
technical explanation] and we regret any inconvenience that may present.
Here
is a how you can anticipate and minimize the consequences of this problem
[link]".
...